Becoming a Barrister and Specialisation | Karen Petch

Hello and welcome back to the Australian Law Student Podcast. I'm your host Oliver Hammond and in today's episode I had the pleasure of speaking with Karen Patch. Karen is a highly accomplished junior barrister with specialist experience in insolvency and corporations law. Karen's journey through the legal profession has been nothing short of remarkable and she has built a reputation for her expertise and dedication to her work. During our conversation, Karen shares her experiences transitioning from a law student to solicitor to a practising barrister. Her insights into the complexities of the law and the practical challenges she has faced has made for a very interesting discussion that you don't want to miss. So without further ado, sit back, relax, and enjoy the podcast. Hello everyone, and welcome to the Australian Law Student Podcast. I'm your host, Oliver Hammond, and today I have a very special guest with me, Karen Petch from New Chambers, a junior barrister. Karen, thanks so much for joining me today. Thanks, I'm happy to join you. I'll start off with my first question. You're recognised as a leading expert in insolvency and restructuring law. Did you take an interest in this field during law school or has your expertise developed over time through your work? Many students and young lawyers are keen to know how to choose a specialisation in a field to practice in the law and perhaps the best way to pursue it. Sure, the short answer is it started at law school, but for a long time I didn't know what I wanted to do. Like everybody, I went straight from law school, straight from school to law school rather, and about three years into my law degree thought I don't know if I can keep doing this. Like this is a really long thing to do. So I actually took a year out, went to the UK, worked in events management for the British Museum of all things. And when I came back I did equity with then Professor John Stumbles, who has sadly passed away. He was a really great expert in equity, but he was also a partner at Mallesons. And so, OK, WM as it is now. And So what he should sort of showed me was that there was a real commercial application to principles of equity. And that brought me sort of back into the present. I think my frustration with law school as I'd felt like it was so esoteric. I never wanted to be a constitutional lawyer. So like, you know, the the idea of running those big arguments didn't appeal to me. So that really brought it into the practical for me. At a similar time I did corporations law with and he's now at UCID professor Jason Harris and he and the combination of those two subjects made me think actually equitable remedies in the corporate world is is quite an interesting topic. So from meeting Jason as he taught me corporations law, he then came to be my honest supervisor and I did my thesis in insolvency. He said that, you know, that might be something that I might enjoy and he was right. And so I did my honest thesis in insolvent trading of all things and, and I found it interesting. And so then when I applied for grad roles, I had some real experience in something. I had real experience in insolvency. And I think that was appealing to some of the firms that I went to apply for. I ended up at Allen Ovary in London doing a training contract there and I did insolvency there. And that really sort of cemented my interest because while I was there, I did rotations in derivatives and capital markets products as well as insolvency. And it was the time of Lehman's. Yeah, yeah. So a big part of the Lehman's insolvency was how to treat their derivatives in capital markets products. So that was sort of the little journey that led me into insolvency and. So did you did? You go straight from Australia to the UK. Yeah, I did. So I finished my law degree. I did six months of a grad rotation at Mentors. Sorry, Mentors. I loved it there. But I then got a role with Justice McDougal, then of the equity division of the Supreme Court in the commercial list. And so I worked as an associate for His Honour for a year and then well prior to that, when I'd been in London working in events, I had applied for a training contract, you know, so I went over. And I suppose taking a step sort of back in your professional career as a, as a barrister now, was that something that you always saw yourself doing as well? Yeah, I mean, I'd always had an interest in the bar back in high school and university. I was better at debating and mooting than I was at sitting in a room and writing an essay. So I I always knew that life would be easier for me if I could be a specialist advocate. And it just so happened that the path to the bar, at least back then, I'm not completely sure it's the same now, but back then it was sort of working a big Australian law firm as a graduate. Do an associate ship, go to Oxbridge, work in an international firm, would come to the bar and that used to be sort of like quite a typical route. And it just so happened that that suited what I was interested in doing. So I think I did have an interest in the bar, but it just was like, so interested in doing those things. I suppose your your time in overseas London, do you think that formed you well as well? I, I do, I spent 5 1/2 years at AO and I went, I did my masters at Cambridge as well while I was over there. And I think it did, I think the, the big English firms, I don't really have any experience of the US firms other than I went on secondment to New York with Ellen and Ovary. But I think the big English firms are good that they have such a competitive intake process. Everybody around me was very clever. The work that they were doing was exceptional, particularly Ellen and Ovary is a leading banking firm. I was interested in banking and insolvency. So I was seeing all sort of the best work in the market. And I think as a junior, something I tell juniors that I work with now is working at those big firms can feel soul crushing at 2:00 in the morning on the 5th day. But what? And and that's not to be taken lightly. That is awful. But what it gives you is 1/6 sense about how to run a transaction, how to run a case, attention to detail, producing a good work product. And so the things that I had drilled into me island very early on when I was, you know, tired and grumpy, and now things that I just take as sort of a second nature, Yeah. So I'm really, really grateful for that experience. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean Eleanor every, I suppose. I've recently just merged with. Shannon. Shannon, so big American firm there has come and that's quite big news actually. It's quite revolutionary. Yeah, we've talked a little bit about that. So yeah. Yeah. So I think it's a really exciting opportunity. When I was in New York, I could see that that ANO was really looking to make big inroads into the US and so obviously they found the perfect partner to do. That yeah, yeah, no, it's a yes. It's definitely a big budget. I'll move on now to my next question. Sure. Karen. Your legal journey began at UTS where you received the batch of laws and you took to then the UK and then, as you mentioned, Cambridge. This path has LED you to being recognised as one of Australia's best junior barristers in the area of commercial disputes. Could you share some notable anecdotes or memorable cases that have shaped your career and even influenced your approach to the law? Yeah, sure. I think I'll start with the approach to the law first. Like I I think I've been doing this. I was admitted as a lawyer in Australia in 2010. So it's 14 years. I know you can't tell, but I think what I know now is that the law is really the serve in at least in commercial law, forget criminal law, that's someone else's specialty. I can't speak to that. But in the commercial or at least law is really the servant of commerce. And what I mean by that is the law creates, or at least tries to create predictable legal outcomes around which commercial people can do deals and buy, sell, have faith in the economic framework that supports their transactions and their litigation. And So what that means is that you are the law. I think, or at least my approach to the law is trying to produce the most predictable outcome that that is available given the context. So in the transactional side, that means parties coming together. So I did transactional law in the UK before I did litigation here. In the transactional world, that means putting together a set of documents that reflects the party's bargains and allowing them, giving them advice about the operation of the law so that they can price their risk. So it's inevitable sometimes that conflict emerges, but people want to be able to price the risk of that conflict when they're entering into their transaction. So you might, for example, buy something really cheap if there's a chance it'll go badly and that's OK. It's when those two things come out of sync that you have problems. And so as a consequence of sort of that being my understanding of how the law and commerce work together, I think that makes me a little bit more commercial when I come to settle cases. So clients, for example, who they always knew there was a risk and they just want to get out on a certain basis. It makes it easier to sort of go with the client and and form an outcome for them that they want based on their understanding of the matter. I think that's really important because at the end of the day, they're not our cases, they're the clients cases and you're dealing with people's lives, fortunes, futures. So it's really important to remember that I think of course, when insolvency comes in, nobody anticipated that that would be the result and that can often turn things on its head. So I think again, in that circumstance, trying to do the same thing, trying to produce an outcome that is as close to what the party's as intended as possible, recognizing of course that the whole chess board has been upended. A good example of that I think was a case I did a couple of years ago just after COVID in Australia called Halifax. So that's what it's sort of known as. If there's anybody who is a real geek, I can give you the citation. In Australia it's 2021 FCA 531 and in New Zealand it's 2021 NZHC 1113. That was the first time that the Australian Federal Court and the High Court of New Zealand sat concurrently. So that was a big thing in international insolvency and the topic of that litigation was the failure of a stock broking firm. So a whole lot of mum and dad investors had contributed their money to Halifax in Australia and in the and in New Zealand as essentially a brokerage firm. And what had happened was that that company had become insolvent with their money inside. And so there was a question of how these people could get their money back. They didn't actually own any of the shares that they had invested in. They just had a bare claim against the companies, and the companies had owned the shares, and they've been sort of betting against the house, I suppose. And So what we're able to do in that litigation is say, well, all of the funds of all of these customers have been mixed. Yeah, across these two companies in Australia and New Zealand. We can't actually work out who owns what. So what is the fairest way to resolve this problem? And the courts were extraordinary in how they dealt with it. They really had, I think, the interests, the commercial interests of these people at the forefront of their minds. They sat simultaneously. So the High Court of New Zealand and the Federal Court of Australia sat simultaneously. We as the advocates appeared in both courts at once. So I was based in Australia but appearing via video link in New Zealand, making submissions to both judges at once. And the question for the judges is, should we pull all of the assets and distribute them pari passu, so as in the amount you put in, you get a proportion of that amount as what you get out, or should we do it in some other way? And ultimately, the court decided that we should distribute them, parry passu in a way that sort of resulted in people getting back a portion. Yeah. Of what they were entitled to. Yeah. And so I think, you know, you asked about my approach, memorable cases and anecdotes. I think that's a really good example of how the law tried to follow commerce in that circumstance and give people back what was the fairest, most predictable. Yeah, well return well, I mean that that sound like an amazing case. I mean, to be a part of that as well whilst being solitary, that's that's I think a once in a lifetime sort of, yeah, to be a part of. It's a real highlight, yeah. Yeah, I can, I can imagine, I suppose in relation to that being before the High Court and dealing with things like pressure and dealing with these sort of, yeah, quite complex matters and complex cases. Do you find that you're experiencing commercial law has LED you, well, I suppose, in in dealing with that, I suppose. Well, what sort of things would you, what sort of advice would you give to a law student who perhaps is sometimes a bit overwhelmed, I think, with the complexity of sort of the commercial space? Yeah. And, and I mean, you know, things like the Corporations Act and some students would be doing that at the moment in their courses and things like that. And I can tell you that, yeah, a lot of people find these sorts of things quite difficult to grasp their their head around upon first instance, Yeah. Yeah. Of course, yeah. So let me tell you, I still sometimes read cases and think, what is the judge saying here? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, one of the first things to remember is sometimes it's you. Sometimes you just don't have the level of experience yet to grasp the concepts that are being referred to. Sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's not clear what the judge is saying. I think the best thing that I the best practice for sort of reading and understanding cases that I can suggest is give yourself time. Read it slowly. If you don't understand something, read it again. If you don't understand the concept, go and work out what it is. And sometimes it can be, I remember it's so frustrating because it will take you hours to read something and then you ultimately realize it wasn't relevant. But that's just the part of the process of becoming a lawyer and a better lawyer. So I think don't be disheartened by it. Know that people meet, read, and this understand concepts all of the time. But now that also that it gets better. By the time you've been practicing for 10 or 15 years, you have a bit of an instinct for for what the answer is likely to be. And then sometimes you're wrong. But then I think every day since I started practice I have found research, for example, easier because I have an idea now about what to look for, where to go, what the answer is likely to be. When I read something that I feel it just isn't quite right, I know to keep looking. Do you feel like you're more studious now or when you're perhaps a student? I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what the difference is now. When I was a law student, I I was one of those losers who had all of my assessments done two weeks before they were. Oh yeah, crazy. Yeah. Because I didn't like the last minute. Stress, I think it's the way to do it, I think. Yeah, everyone. Else might be liking something there. Yeah, but if you, what I discovered as a junior lawyer is if you do everything before it's due, people just give you more work. Yes. Yeah. And so there's never any actual end date. So as a consequence, over time, I lament this with my colleagues all the time. You become very motivated by panic. Yes. You become very motivated by something is due tomorrow. I've got to get it done. Yeah. So I think when you say was I'm more studious as a law student, I was certainly more structured and organized, I guess because I controlled the timeline a bit more. Whereas now I don't control timelines and I'm usually subject to client demands. And the consequence of that is usually that I am working very hard, very late at night. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And how do you deal with that? Perhaps stress and that workload? Breaking things down one step at a time. I think it was similar to when I had exams. I used similar techniques to when I was a law student or high school student, which is you've got a series of exams coming up, a whole bunch of competing deadlines. When you look at them all as a kind of an amorphous BLOB, you think, however, will I do this? And then the key, back then, I used to just divide my day, like get my calendar and allocate time, you know, three hours for this, two hours for that. Break things down into little chunks. Something I was going to say in relation to skills that I've I've learned as a lawyer is to when you get something and it's overwhelming and you feel like procrastinating. I learnt this from Justice McDougal, who I worked for. Do it straight away. Yeah, because it doesn't get easier. And that's really simple to say. But when you say do it straight away, do what? Well, what I what I do is when something is overwhelming, I just write down the facts or do a chronology, something like that. Because actually once you don't realize at the time, you feel confronted by the solution, not knowing what that is. Once you write out the facts, you usually know what the problem is. And once you know what the problem is, you usually know what the solution is. So you've just got to start like get that chronology going. Yeah, well, there's a saying it's like 1/2. The job is just like by like writing it down or like organized. Yeah, like it's half, half the task is sort of knowing what to do I. Suppose half the task is working out. What the problem? Is yes. Yeah, once you know what the problem is, solving it isn't actually all that hard. It's sometimes clients come to you and they can't speak a legal language. They don't know what's important and what's not. They come to you in a cluster of emotion and problems and anguish and I think what what will really help you get through it is right down facts. Yeah. Well, thanks so much. We're approaching towards the end of the podcast and I'd just like to ask you some standardized questions that we asked all of our guests for our students to get to know them a little bit better. So start off with my first one. What was your favorite subject in law school and why? I think it was equity, as I mentioned. So Professor Stumbles who taught that subject, because I could see the real world application of that subject. Yeah, in commercial life and things like directors duties, the separation of legal and beneficial interests, all of that sort of just made sense to me. Some people love equity, some people hate it. I fell in the love camp. Yeah, wow, Wow. Moving on to the next one, do you have a book or a movie that's significant to you and one you'd recommend to students? OK, I've got 2 and they'll both be quick. The 1st is a book called Parting Words. So one of them is if you need like a comforting word from your grandpa and the other one is if you want to know what to do with yourself. So the the comforting word from your grandpa is Parting Words. It's a book by a guy called Benjamin Ferens. It's called 9 Lessons for Remarkable Life. And he was a person who sort of was raised as in New York, got a scholarship to Harvard, ended up fighting in the Second World War, and there was a prosecutor on the Nuremberg trials. And so he wrote this book, I think in about the year 2000, so when he was 100 years old. And they were essentially his last lessons on life for us. And it's a beautiful book. And they are. He's really encouraging. And the essence of it is, you know, be humble, embrace the moment, go and do what you, you know, listen to yourself, listen to heart, that sort of thing. I wholeheartedly recommend that book. If you need a little perk. My grandfather is no longer with us, and so he is. This book is the best substitute in those circumstances. The other one I'd recommend to you. I read it when I was at university and it really changed the way that I saw what I would do with my life. And it's called The Most Good You Can Do. It's by Peter Singer, who is a, he's a retired now philosopher from Yale University. And, and the, the thesis of the most good you can do is that by earning more, you can contribute more good to society. So if you live modestly, contribute more through effective charities, you can actually do just as much good as if you were sort of on the front line doing the, you know, the human rights advocacy work, for example, that is so important. Something that I learned from that book as well is, you know, if you have a degree in law and work as a lawyer puts you in an extraordinarily privileged position where you know more about the justice system and the political system than most of people in society. And so with that comes with a huge power to be able to influence people to make decisions for good, including. And that doesn't mean that if you're in a corporate sphere, you have no space to do anything. You can speak to colleagues, use your influence. And I've sort of done that over time. You know, when I was at Allen and Ovary working, we worked for an NGO called the Human Dignity Trust which had at it's focus empowering local activist groups in countries where it was still illegal to be gay, to try and work with their law officers to change the laws there. So you can, you know, working with somebody like Alan Ovary gives you the gravitas to be able to help local organisations in that way. So I just wouldn't, I would encourage people to read that book, but in particular not to write off corporate law firms as sort of the epicentre of greed and social ills. If you're clever about it, and if you don't get sucked into the sort of all of the trappings of commercial law, they actually offer a really powerful opportunity to do something for good. Thank you so much for that insight. Now to the the last question. Sure. What's 1 habit you believe has been pivotal to your success in the legal field? I think it's what I mentioned before that Justice McDougal taught me, which was it doesn't get easier if you procrastinate. Yeah, do it now. If you can do it now. Break it down into tiny bits. Write down the facts. Yeah. Wow. Well, Karen, thank you so much for joining me today that we've run out of time and I just wish you all the best for the rest of the year. Thank you so much. Thank you.