Transcript
Hello and welcome to the
Australian Law Student Podcast.
I'm your host, Oliver Hammond,
and on today's episode it was my
pleasure to interview Joanne
Kinslaw.
Joanne is a lecturer at the
University of NSW who teaches
subjects like administrative and
immigration law.
She's also been an accredited
specialist immigration lawyer
since 2006.
Such a qualification has been
held by less than 40 lawyers
across the state.
She was educated.
At the University of Sydney Law
School, she runs her own
practice.
She's an amazing teacher and she
brings a wealth of knowledge and
experience to today's
discussion.
So sit back, relax and enjoy the
show.
Joanne, thank you so much for
sitting down with me today on
the podcast.
It's a pleasure.
I suppose just start getting
started.
My first question to you is how
would you explain the area of
administrative wars to a younger
law student and how does it
relate to your practice as a
specialist immigration lawyer?
And what about It has kept you
around for so long, so it just.
What a great place to start.
Well, administrative law is
about keeping the executive
government accountable.
So it's concerned with the
review of government decisions
that might be merits review at
tribunals or court review in
terms of the lawfulness of those
decisions.
And immigration law is really
one area and quite a significant
area of administrative law in
Australia.
It's significant for a few
different reasons, one being the
volume of decision making in the
area.
If you are to take for example
the caseload of the Federal
Tribunal, currently the AAT, an
incredibly high proportion of
the decisions under review are
immigration decisions.
If you go to the courts, again
not only in terms of the volume
of decisions but also the the
jurisprudence that's been
developed for the whole of
administrative law through
immigration cases.
So immigration is highly
contested.
It is an area where there really
are a lot of ethical and
societal challenges and not a
lot of easy answers.
So it's not surprising that it's
an area in which there are a lot
of challenges to government
decisions.
And the over the years the
government has responded with
some quite extraordinary
measures, including a couple of
decades ago, an attempt to all
but remove judicial review or
court review for immigration
decisions.
But instead of approximately
coming up to 1/4 of a century
later, us looking out on a scene
where the courts are not
involved with immigration
decisions, instead we find that
the courts have developed an
entirely distinct approach to
previously where the focus has
become jurisdictional error.
And that's now a focus not only
for immigration cases but
throughout administrative law.
Going to the third aspect of
your question, which is what has
engaged me about this area of
law, well, it is the fact that
it's, it's dynamic.
It is the fact that it is at the
cutting edge of many
administrative law developments.
It is because it's concerning
things that really matter.
It's concerning what is the rule
of law, How does the rule of law
operate in Australia?
How does our system of
government operate?
What do we really mean when
we're at the challenging edge of
different cases?
What do we really mean about the
separation of powers and the
role of the courts and the role
of the executive?
It's also engaging because it's
about people.
And that is a whole range of
people, everything from
situations of incredibly highly
skilled people in very large
corporations and the lengths or
the lack of lengths that they
need to to go to to be a part of
Australian society and to bring
their skills on the other end.
It's also people who are in long
term immigration detention and
it's about their stories, why
they're there.
It's about their their
connections with Australians and
it's about the way in which
decisions are made for their
future.
And so that sort of focused more
on individuals rather than
perhaps other areas of law which
focus more on entities and
corporations.
That's something that you really
enjoy.
So that that that sort of more
personable experience.
Absolutely.
That was one of the IT was one
of the things that I was focused
upon in finding an area of law
that I wanted to be involved
with if I were to practice as a
lawyer.
And that's really interesting
that you also make the
distinction I think that when
people think of immigration or
they do think of that, well they
perhaps they don't think of
people in large corporations
that are very skilled and sort
of undergoing immigration, you
know issues or that sort of
thing.
And so in relation to your
experience, your extensive
experience, how have you seen
the sort of past trends develop
in Australia and what what what
can you?
Well, there's a number of
different trends.
Certainly there's a trend in
terms of the focus upon skilled
migration.
So since the the 1990s there was
an increasing shift to favour
skilled migration over what you
could think of as a focus upon
family migration or personal
connection migration.
That's that's in terms of the
content.
Then there's ongoing shifts with
respect to the way in which
migration decisions are
processed.
Perhaps the there's there's been
a number of iterations, but
perhaps we could go back to what
is coming up to close to 10
years.
When there were, there was a
major shift to create the Border
Force as part of the the
Department of Home Affairs and
to shift the focus of Home
Affairs away from settlement and
towards border management.
That also aligned with an
ongoing focus of using
immigration laws to regulate
conduct.
So rather than immigration being
focused on the process by which
a person becomes or is permitted
into the Australian community,
we've seen immigration laws
being used more and more to seek
to regulate the conduct of
people within the Australian
community.
And that is not only non
citizens but also citizens who
who may be wanting to employ non
citizens or family members who
may be wanting to sponsor non
citizens.
So it has been a really
significant refocus and along
with that has been the focus on
immigration law.
And this is something that
Professor Devon from Canada has
analyzed in quite a bit of
depth, but the focus upon
immigration law as about status
rather than the process of
migration.
So what I mean there is that
those with the the higher status
in society are more likely to be
holders of permanent residence
visas, but also less likely to
be resident within the
community.
They're more likely to be global
travellers and those with a
temporary status are more likely
to be in the community for many,
many years.
So these are some of the
different changes that we've
seen in the in the last decades.
Yeah, yeah.
And and so with these trends in
Australia is, is this an
Australian, Australian localized
sort of issue or domestic issue
or is this sort of more in line
with this little bigger global
trend in countries?
I mean very recently the UK for
example of pushing the
legislation for more skilled
workers and and sort of focus on
skilled labour for example seems
to be a sort of global trend
that Australia is picking up for
other countries and some of
these trends.
Certainly, absolutely.
Migration is is portrayed to us
as being very much the
empowerment of the national
government.
But as with a lot of other
aspects of modern life, it is
influenced by by global trends
and Australia is both the the
influencer and the influenced
and there's a lot of information
sharing in terms of of visa
processing as well.
I mentioned that the Australian
sort of system is very unique
though in a long ways.
I mean Australia for example has
a has a a very small population
in relation to its land mass in
relation to other sort of
Western countries.
Is that something that also
presents sort of unique
challenges in your practice, the
sort of the sort of unique
challenges that Australia has
to?
Face Yeah, I look that's quite a
broad a broad question.
Certainly the the geography of
Australia is quite distinct
amongst settler societies and
and that has had an impact on
upon the realities of of border
control.
The very small numbers of
foreigners who are within
Australia without visa
permission, compared to other
countries such as the United
States, in which there's very
large numbers of what would be
termed, you know, undocumented
migrants, those without official
permission to be in the country.
Yeah, yeah, and.
And I suppose turning away now
from your career in private
practice, you also have a
position at the University of
NSW as a lecturer and was the
course convener for the mission
wars when I wonder where the
subject What led you to pursue a
career in teaching war as well
as practicing it?
And what are some of the skills
of not just being a good lawyer
but also a good teacher?
Well, why?
Why have I persisted in being
engaged with with teaching at
the same time as practice?
I think partly it's it's just
personal and it's something that
I I enjoy, but partly it's also
a way of dealing with these
significant stresses in this
area of law there.
It's one of the areas of law
where you really do have the
privilege of being a significant
contributor to people's lives at
particular junctions.
And that's that's the great
privilege.
You get to hear their stories.
You get to look back and be able
to say in some cases the fact
that I was involved and had a
role to play in this person's
life has really meant it's taken
a different direction.
However, it's also an area that
is quite challenging because the
accepted norms of legal practice
in Australia many times don't
apply.
And there are many situations in
which you you can only explain
to people how the law operates.
That is the extent of your
capacities as as a lawyer in
some situations, and people can
be in incredibly difficult
circumstances.
So teaching allows me to to step
back from the details of all of
the cases.
And it allows me to in a sense
take what can be quite stressful
and negative and try to bring
some creativity to that and and
try to to use it in ways that
are are positive.
With respect to educating the
next generation of lawyers and
hopefully inspiring at least
some of them to make some
positive impacts in terms of how
administrative law operates,
particularly immigration law
because the way in which our law
operates series of choices and
we're all a part of those
choices.
So I think that as lawyers we
have, even as in in a general
statement, you don't need to be
lecturing at a university to
have the responsibility of
understanding actually how the
law works and playing an
educative role in society.
There's a lot of situations in
which there's there's
misinformation and and that can
be widespread and that can
influence government decision
making.
And so this education of the
next generation and sort of
equipping them with your
experiences is, is that
something that you think that
that's that that that is a a
hallmark of a good academic and
a good lecturer, someone who
also has perhaps more more of
their own stories to tell, as
well as the sort of theoretical
side behind things, I suppose in
law school.
And what I've noticed is that
there is a difference between
perhaps academics who have
committed themselves to academia
and had an illustrious sort of
academic career and versus
lawyers who are then sometimes
the other lawyers and
professors, teachers and
lecturers or lawyers and who who
have been lawyers and then have
converted into a lecturer
afterwards.
And I think that that's a really
important thing because it's
sort of is able, it's all sort
of way.
It's kind of those teachers are
the ones that go out into the
sort of battlefield and then
come back and then are able to
sort of actually sort of say,
well, this is what it sort of
looks like in in practice.
And I think I think a problem a
lot of the times is that law
theoretically doesn't actually
turn out the way it does in the
real world.
And would you say that
immigration law is a is an area
of that that's is particularly
prone to that, the sort of these
theories and what else, they're
actually affecting actual
people's lives and they have
some vast consequences.
Is that something you're saying?
Well, if we take immigration
law, I certainly have a a
concern that over the years in
which I've been practicing,
there has has become quite a a
gulf in the thinking framework.
So when you have that level of
golf, you can't even have a
sensible conversation.
And I have seen from my
perspective is some really
wonderful academic work, which
is it's in my view important to
have a variety of of approaches.
But the best is when they all
inform each other.
And my concern with immigration
has been that government
decision making has discounted
academic work in in many
instances and that that can
partly be partly be influenced
by a view that the work isn't
speaking to the reality in which
government decision making is
happening.
So then the gulf becomes figure
and bigger.
And my approach with the
immigration course is that first
of all, our responsibility is to
understand the nitty gritty of
the law and then to be
advocating for change rather
than only speaking to to the
theory and perhaps missing out
on opportunities for dialogue.
Thank you for listening to the
Australian Law Student Podcast.
The following segment is
questions from the Bench.
Here we ask our guests a set
series of questions designed for
you to get to know them better
and to get the key advice to
help you on your journey.
Each week we also take a
question from you, our audience.
Head over to our socials and
send us a message to get your
question answered.
Thanks for listening.
Well, thanks so much, Joanne.
We're nearing the end of the
podcast and I just have some
short ratify questions.
We'd like to ask all our guests
to paint a clear picture to
students of what success looks
like out of law school and
perhaps what are some tips and
tricks that they might be able
to follow.
But what was your favorite
subject in law school?
Migration and jurisprudence,
probably, but migration was the
one that allowed me to focus on
work with people.
And so what's 1 habit or system
that you've believe that you
believe has been pivotal to your
success in the legal field?
What's one that you've kept?
Up habit that I've kept up.
Well, it isn't.
It has been probably an
insistence on surrounding my
people and myself with people
that I respect and working with
people in which where we share a
concept of of values and where
we have a high level of trust
amongst us.
That would probably be my my key
commitment.
And I suppose they're taking a
little more of a fun route.
What's or what's a book or a
movie that's been significant to
you and what you'd recommend
just?
You.
Yeah, look, that's a hard one.
I would probably say a novel
that I really enjoyed was The
Book of Strange New Things, and
that was because it did what I
want with a novel, which is
helped me to think about things
from a completely different
angle.
Yeah, OK.
OK.
That's certainly important in
today's age, I think from
different angles.
And I suppose for students
aspiring to make an impact in
the world, what's a skill or
quality that you believe is the
most important for them to
develop in being able to go and
pick their foot out and and be a
positive impact?
Well, I would.
I always encourage law students
to take the time while they're
at uni to develop quite a strong
sense of both the privilege and
the opportunity and the
qualities of being a lawyer, as
well as the limitations.
In my experience it's it's those
practitioners where they don't
see meaning in what they do that
it becomes a a very unpleasant
experience, the practice of the
law and we have the privilege of
being part of a profession which
has a role within society.
We're not just running
businesses.
So I think that's really
important to have that vision.
It creates an easy framework for
what would otherwise become
really difficult ethical
questions when you're working
with clients under pressure, but
also to have the humility of
recognizing the limitations of
what it means to be a lawyer.
You're not everything to anyone,
Yeah.
If you if you go down that path,
then the likelihood is you'll
miss out on being able to play
the valuable role of being their
lawyer.
Yeah, well, well, let's, I
suppose in relation to your
career, did you always envision
yourself practicing in the field
that you are today or what?
Or if not, what did you think
that you'd do?
I suppose with your favorite
subject being immigration or you
kind of always had to?
Well, that was quite late in my
law degree as an elective.
I certainly did not have a
clearview that I would even
finish the last two years of the
the law degree as opposed to
finish with the the arts degree.
So it's certainly I wasn't a
given for me.
I enjoyed history.
That was part of what led me
into arts and law in the 1st
place.
And I think what I enjoyed about
the law was the tools that it
gave me to to analyze problems,
you know, problems of people
living in society.
And not to find perfect
solutions, but to offer
something valuable in terms of
how we can function.
Yeah, yeah.
And so we're all voice at the
end.
Just the second last question.
What's the greatest piece of
advice that you've ever
received?
Has there ever been a piece of
advice that's stuck with you for
when perhaps you're a student or
a young lawyer?
That's a really hard one.
I think there's so many great
pieces of advice.
Or.
There's the advice isn't doesn't
come in sentences that that it
is.
It's more about the people who
are willing to show you what it
means to be part of a profession
profession and show you that it
means not to be alone and to
share in the the experience.
And that is one of the aspects
of of immigration law that I
really enjoy is a high level of
collegiality.
And it's really a common
understanding of of what it
means to to be a professional in
this field.
And it's an area where you can
always call on your colleagues
to to brainstorm to to find a
way forward.
So I I couldn't actually isolate
a piece of advice, but it's the
ongoing, yeah, support and
willingness to have the
conversation that has been one
of the wonderful aspects of
being part of the profession.
Right.
That's great.
I suppose that's that's a piece
of advice that you've just
given.
It might be someone else's
greatest piece of advice.
So yeah, I I suppose finally our
last question.
This is 1 from someone who's
wrote in one of our fans, Nick
Walsh from the University of
Queensland who's just starting
out, said what's the best way to
start setting myself up for
career success as a first year
law student.
What are what tips did you do or
would would you have liked to
have done when you were in first
year that perhaps could have
made the OR or did back the?
Oh look I I'd probably say, you
know know yourself what is it
about you that makes you want to
be a lawyer?
What is the culture that you
want to be a part of?
Do you do you think that the,
the big firm seeing is the one
that resonates with you or the
small firm or the the government
lawyer or.
And and then what are your
values?
Because that's going to define
how you make decisions and what
is it that allows you to find
purpose and meaning that is what
is going to separate you from
automation?
Yeah, yeah.
It's irreplaceable.
And it's also I think going to
have a big impact on your
ability to meet the the mental
health challenges that are
common to the legal profession.
So I would encourage you first
of all to know yourself, where
do you find purpose and meaning,
What are your values and what is
the the culture that you want to
be a part of?
And then just be open to taking
a direction and taking a
different.
Direction.
Well, Joanne, thank you so much
for sitting down with me and
talking to me today.
And thanks to everyone for
listening.
Thank you.
Thank you.