Immigration Law & University Teaching | Joanne Kinslor

Hello and welcome to the Australian Law Student Podcast. I'm your host, Oliver Hammond, and on today's episode it was my pleasure to interview Joanne Kinslaw. Joanne is a lecturer at the University of NSW who teaches subjects like administrative and immigration law. She's also been an accredited specialist immigration lawyer since 2006. Such a qualification has been held by less than 40 lawyers across the state. She was educated. At the University of Sydney Law School, she runs her own practice. She's an amazing teacher and she brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to today's discussion. So sit back, relax and enjoy the show. Joanne, thank you so much for sitting down with me today on the podcast. It's a pleasure. I suppose just start getting started. My first question to you is how would you explain the area of administrative wars to a younger law student and how does it relate to your practice as a specialist immigration lawyer? And what about It has kept you around for so long, so it just. What a great place to start. Well, administrative law is about keeping the executive government accountable. So it's concerned with the review of government decisions that might be merits review at tribunals or court review in terms of the lawfulness of those decisions. And immigration law is really one area and quite a significant area of administrative law in Australia. It's significant for a few different reasons, one being the volume of decision making in the area. If you are to take for example the caseload of the Federal Tribunal, currently the AAT, an incredibly high proportion of the decisions under review are immigration decisions. If you go to the courts, again not only in terms of the volume of decisions but also the the jurisprudence that's been developed for the whole of administrative law through immigration cases. So immigration is highly contested. It is an area where there really are a lot of ethical and societal challenges and not a lot of easy answers. So it's not surprising that it's an area in which there are a lot of challenges to government decisions. And the over the years the government has responded with some quite extraordinary measures, including a couple of decades ago, an attempt to all but remove judicial review or court review for immigration decisions. But instead of approximately coming up to 1/4 of a century later, us looking out on a scene where the courts are not involved with immigration decisions, instead we find that the courts have developed an entirely distinct approach to previously where the focus has become jurisdictional error. And that's now a focus not only for immigration cases but throughout administrative law. Going to the third aspect of your question, which is what has engaged me about this area of law, well, it is the fact that it's, it's dynamic. It is the fact that it is at the cutting edge of many administrative law developments. It is because it's concerning things that really matter. It's concerning what is the rule of law, How does the rule of law operate in Australia? How does our system of government operate? What do we really mean when we're at the challenging edge of different cases? What do we really mean about the separation of powers and the role of the courts and the role of the executive? It's also engaging because it's about people. And that is a whole range of people, everything from situations of incredibly highly skilled people in very large corporations and the lengths or the lack of lengths that they need to to go to to be a part of Australian society and to bring their skills on the other end. It's also people who are in long term immigration detention and it's about their stories, why they're there. It's about their their connections with Australians and it's about the way in which decisions are made for their future. And so that sort of focused more on individuals rather than perhaps other areas of law which focus more on entities and corporations. That's something that you really enjoy. So that that that sort of more personable experience. Absolutely. That was one of the IT was one of the things that I was focused upon in finding an area of law that I wanted to be involved with if I were to practice as a lawyer. And that's really interesting that you also make the distinction I think that when people think of immigration or they do think of that, well they perhaps they don't think of people in large corporations that are very skilled and sort of undergoing immigration, you know issues or that sort of thing. And so in relation to your experience, your extensive experience, how have you seen the sort of past trends develop in Australia and what what what can you? Well, there's a number of different trends. Certainly there's a trend in terms of the focus upon skilled migration. So since the the 1990s there was an increasing shift to favour skilled migration over what you could think of as a focus upon family migration or personal connection migration. That's that's in terms of the content. Then there's ongoing shifts with respect to the way in which migration decisions are processed. Perhaps the there's there's been a number of iterations, but perhaps we could go back to what is coming up to close to 10 years. When there were, there was a major shift to create the Border Force as part of the the Department of Home Affairs and to shift the focus of Home Affairs away from settlement and towards border management. That also aligned with an ongoing focus of using immigration laws to regulate conduct. So rather than immigration being focused on the process by which a person becomes or is permitted into the Australian community, we've seen immigration laws being used more and more to seek to regulate the conduct of people within the Australian community. And that is not only non citizens but also citizens who who may be wanting to employ non citizens or family members who may be wanting to sponsor non citizens. So it has been a really significant refocus and along with that has been the focus on immigration law. And this is something that Professor Devon from Canada has analyzed in quite a bit of depth, but the focus upon immigration law as about status rather than the process of migration. So what I mean there is that those with the the higher status in society are more likely to be holders of permanent residence visas, but also less likely to be resident within the community. They're more likely to be global travellers and those with a temporary status are more likely to be in the community for many, many years. So these are some of the different changes that we've seen in the in the last decades. Yeah, yeah. And and so with these trends in Australia is, is this an Australian, Australian localized sort of issue or domestic issue or is this sort of more in line with this little bigger global trend in countries? I mean very recently the UK for example of pushing the legislation for more skilled workers and and sort of focus on skilled labour for example seems to be a sort of global trend that Australia is picking up for other countries and some of these trends. Certainly, absolutely. Migration is is portrayed to us as being very much the empowerment of the national government. But as with a lot of other aspects of modern life, it is influenced by by global trends and Australia is both the the influencer and the influenced and there's a lot of information sharing in terms of of visa processing as well. I mentioned that the Australian sort of system is very unique though in a long ways. I mean Australia for example has a has a a very small population in relation to its land mass in relation to other sort of Western countries. Is that something that also presents sort of unique challenges in your practice, the sort of the sort of unique challenges that Australia has to? Face Yeah, I look that's quite a broad a broad question. Certainly the the geography of Australia is quite distinct amongst settler societies and and that has had an impact on upon the realities of of border control. The very small numbers of foreigners who are within Australia without visa permission, compared to other countries such as the United States, in which there's very large numbers of what would be termed, you know, undocumented migrants, those without official permission to be in the country. Yeah, yeah, and. And I suppose turning away now from your career in private practice, you also have a position at the University of NSW as a lecturer and was the course convener for the mission wars when I wonder where the subject What led you to pursue a career in teaching war as well as practicing it? And what are some of the skills of not just being a good lawyer but also a good teacher? Well, why? Why have I persisted in being engaged with with teaching at the same time as practice? I think partly it's it's just personal and it's something that I I enjoy, but partly it's also a way of dealing with these significant stresses in this area of law there. It's one of the areas of law where you really do have the privilege of being a significant contributor to people's lives at particular junctions. And that's that's the great privilege. You get to hear their stories. You get to look back and be able to say in some cases the fact that I was involved and had a role to play in this person's life has really meant it's taken a different direction. However, it's also an area that is quite challenging because the accepted norms of legal practice in Australia many times don't apply. And there are many situations in which you you can only explain to people how the law operates. That is the extent of your capacities as as a lawyer in some situations, and people can be in incredibly difficult circumstances. So teaching allows me to to step back from the details of all of the cases. And it allows me to in a sense take what can be quite stressful and negative and try to bring some creativity to that and and try to to use it in ways that are are positive. With respect to educating the next generation of lawyers and hopefully inspiring at least some of them to make some positive impacts in terms of how administrative law operates, particularly immigration law because the way in which our law operates series of choices and we're all a part of those choices. So I think that as lawyers we have, even as in in a general statement, you don't need to be lecturing at a university to have the responsibility of understanding actually how the law works and playing an educative role in society. There's a lot of situations in which there's there's misinformation and and that can be widespread and that can influence government decision making. And so this education of the next generation and sort of equipping them with your experiences is, is that something that you think that that's that that that is a a hallmark of a good academic and a good lecturer, someone who also has perhaps more more of their own stories to tell, as well as the sort of theoretical side behind things, I suppose in law school. And what I've noticed is that there is a difference between perhaps academics who have committed themselves to academia and had an illustrious sort of academic career and versus lawyers who are then sometimes the other lawyers and professors, teachers and lecturers or lawyers and who who have been lawyers and then have converted into a lecturer afterwards. And I think that that's a really important thing because it's sort of is able, it's all sort of way. It's kind of those teachers are the ones that go out into the sort of battlefield and then come back and then are able to sort of actually sort of say, well, this is what it sort of looks like in in practice. And I think I think a problem a lot of the times is that law theoretically doesn't actually turn out the way it does in the real world. And would you say that immigration law is a is an area of that that's is particularly prone to that, the sort of these theories and what else, they're actually affecting actual people's lives and they have some vast consequences. Is that something you're saying? Well, if we take immigration law, I certainly have a a concern that over the years in which I've been practicing, there has has become quite a a gulf in the thinking framework. So when you have that level of golf, you can't even have a sensible conversation. And I have seen from my perspective is some really wonderful academic work, which is it's in my view important to have a variety of of approaches. But the best is when they all inform each other. And my concern with immigration has been that government decision making has discounted academic work in in many instances and that that can partly be partly be influenced by a view that the work isn't speaking to the reality in which government decision making is happening. So then the gulf becomes figure and bigger. And my approach with the immigration course is that first of all, our responsibility is to understand the nitty gritty of the law and then to be advocating for change rather than only speaking to to the theory and perhaps missing out on opportunities for dialogue. Thank you for listening to the Australian Law Student Podcast. The following segment is questions from the Bench. Here we ask our guests a set series of questions designed for you to get to know them better and to get the key advice to help you on your journey. Each week we also take a question from you, our audience. Head over to our socials and send us a message to get your question answered. Thanks for listening. Well, thanks so much, Joanne. We're nearing the end of the podcast and I just have some short ratify questions. We'd like to ask all our guests to paint a clear picture to students of what success looks like out of law school and perhaps what are some tips and tricks that they might be able to follow. But what was your favorite subject in law school? Migration and jurisprudence, probably, but migration was the one that allowed me to focus on work with people. And so what's 1 habit or system that you've believe that you believe has been pivotal to your success in the legal field? What's one that you've kept? Up habit that I've kept up. Well, it isn't. It has been probably an insistence on surrounding my people and myself with people that I respect and working with people in which where we share a concept of of values and where we have a high level of trust amongst us. That would probably be my my key commitment. And I suppose they're taking a little more of a fun route. What's or what's a book or a movie that's been significant to you and what you'd recommend just? You. Yeah, look, that's a hard one. I would probably say a novel that I really enjoyed was The Book of Strange New Things, and that was because it did what I want with a novel, which is helped me to think about things from a completely different angle. Yeah, OK. OK. That's certainly important in today's age, I think from different angles. And I suppose for students aspiring to make an impact in the world, what's a skill or quality that you believe is the most important for them to develop in being able to go and pick their foot out and and be a positive impact? Well, I would. I always encourage law students to take the time while they're at uni to develop quite a strong sense of both the privilege and the opportunity and the qualities of being a lawyer, as well as the limitations. In my experience it's it's those practitioners where they don't see meaning in what they do that it becomes a a very unpleasant experience, the practice of the law and we have the privilege of being part of a profession which has a role within society. We're not just running businesses. So I think that's really important to have that vision. It creates an easy framework for what would otherwise become really difficult ethical questions when you're working with clients under pressure, but also to have the humility of recognizing the limitations of what it means to be a lawyer. You're not everything to anyone, Yeah. If you if you go down that path, then the likelihood is you'll miss out on being able to play the valuable role of being their lawyer. Yeah, well, well, let's, I suppose in relation to your career, did you always envision yourself practicing in the field that you are today or what? Or if not, what did you think that you'd do? I suppose with your favorite subject being immigration or you kind of always had to? Well, that was quite late in my law degree as an elective. I certainly did not have a clearview that I would even finish the last two years of the the law degree as opposed to finish with the the arts degree. So it's certainly I wasn't a given for me. I enjoyed history. That was part of what led me into arts and law in the 1st place. And I think what I enjoyed about the law was the tools that it gave me to to analyze problems, you know, problems of people living in society. And not to find perfect solutions, but to offer something valuable in terms of how we can function. Yeah, yeah. And so we're all voice at the end. Just the second last question. What's the greatest piece of advice that you've ever received? Has there ever been a piece of advice that's stuck with you for when perhaps you're a student or a young lawyer? That's a really hard one. I think there's so many great pieces of advice. Or. There's the advice isn't doesn't come in sentences that that it is. It's more about the people who are willing to show you what it means to be part of a profession profession and show you that it means not to be alone and to share in the the experience. And that is one of the aspects of of immigration law that I really enjoy is a high level of collegiality. And it's really a common understanding of of what it means to to be a professional in this field. And it's an area where you can always call on your colleagues to to brainstorm to to find a way forward. So I I couldn't actually isolate a piece of advice, but it's the ongoing, yeah, support and willingness to have the conversation that has been one of the wonderful aspects of being part of the profession. Right. That's great. I suppose that's that's a piece of advice that you've just given. It might be someone else's greatest piece of advice. So yeah, I I suppose finally our last question. This is 1 from someone who's wrote in one of our fans, Nick Walsh from the University of Queensland who's just starting out, said what's the best way to start setting myself up for career success as a first year law student. What are what tips did you do or would would you have liked to have done when you were in first year that perhaps could have made the OR or did back the? Oh look I I'd probably say, you know know yourself what is it about you that makes you want to be a lawyer? What is the culture that you want to be a part of? Do you do you think that the, the big firm seeing is the one that resonates with you or the small firm or the the government lawyer or. And and then what are your values? Because that's going to define how you make decisions and what is it that allows you to find purpose and meaning that is what is going to separate you from automation? Yeah, yeah. It's irreplaceable. And it's also I think going to have a big impact on your ability to meet the the mental health challenges that are common to the legal profession. So I would encourage you first of all to know yourself, where do you find purpose and meaning, What are your values and what is the the culture that you want to be a part of? And then just be open to taking a direction and taking a different. Direction. Well, Joanne, thank you so much for sitting down with me and talking to me today. And thanks to everyone for listening. Thank you. Thank you.