Kale Murnane: Parenting in Law School

Hello and welcome back to the Australian law student podcast. I'm your host, Oliver Hammond. And in this episode, I had the pleasure of speaking with kale manane, a JD student at unsw. Kale is a young father of three and has recently completed a clock shipping and wood mallesons. It was great to talk to him about his journey into the law and discuss how he juggles study supporting a young family, and building his career. If you're Keen to hear afresh real and diverse perspective on breaking into the legal profession, this is an episode. You don't want to miss Are you a law student applying for Clarks ships? This year, you're not alone, get free access to Great iq's Law. Clerkship toolkit containing details, firm profiles, clerkship lists and CV and cover letter templates. Wanna go further the grout IQ Academy pairs, you one-on-one with mentors who've got offers from linklaters. Alan's and widen case, you'll get tailored CV feedback mock interviews and advanced networking and Commercial awareness prep. The best part you only pay if you learned an offer head to grad eyecue and apply now, and make sure to tell them that you listen to the Australian law student. Thanks to God IQ for supporting the podcast. Yeah, thank you, chaos. So much for joining me today to talk about your experience. Share your experience as a young, father as a law student at unsw. I'll start off with my first question. What led you in particular to come to unsw to relocate from Hua with a young family? You did a bachelor's degree back there and I suppose what was the sort of reasoning behind coming to unsw and relocating? So, yeah. Originally yeah, from Regional, wa I moved up to Perth for a while and did my bachelor's degree there lived and worked in Perth and had our first daughter up there, before coming back down to Albany to South Coast or Western Australia. And we loved it there. We always will. But I think we'll kind of we're looking for one more Adventure before we properly set Our Roots down and kind of established Our Lives. And it was around that time, I was applying for some various degrees. I was working in finance at the time Financial adjacent. Role. And I was gonna head off to Canberra and do a little Masters in financial management. And when I was putting through my applications, I started looking to law and thinking about this side of things, as well as something that I'd never considered in my life up until that point, to be honest. And how to had a good look and taught myself as much as I could about it. And then yeah, put in some applications for the JD programs here in Sydney. I was fortunate to get a CSP offer here at unsw which is a huge factor that kind of swung me this way and and yeah came across to Sydney. Also because I have family here, my brother's here with his three kids as well. So it's a big part of it as well. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's, um, I think as well with having children did that impact your decision to pursue the law? Yeah, I think in in a way a new I was kind of getting in for it's a tough to agree and there's no way around that. But yeah, having kids, I think. It was more that we wanted to show our children that you can kind of take on anything. If you if you want to he shouldn't Reserve yourself to the hand. You're dealt kind of mentality. Is what we were hoping to get out of it. Nothing. It's really shine in our children as well. So far, how that, how resilient they are and how they've adapted to the move and So yeah, that was a big factor in terms of really like adding General. Yeah, in terms of studying law specifically it was it was something more on the personal end. It was something that I So you get out be interested in that suited me. Well. And so, yeah, pursued it for those reasons, yeah, yeah, I don't know. I'm, you know, I'm friends with people who mothers and fathers might have been sort of Bankers or people in finance and often move jobs quite around. You know, people who've been single live in Singapore and then Dubai over their child and stuff like that and go to International Schools. Some of them love it and a lot. However you've got on the other side I suppose people who believe that, you know, and it's probably back to I think sort of more mainstream following that, you know, you have a house that you live in. You have a house that you buy, you live in that into your children are adult and things like that. Obviously, while they're young, that's that there's a bit more room for that. Is that something, you know, in the future is that something that you think will play a bigger impact, the sort of fact, that you shouldn't getting older building more roots and things like that in, where they live? Yeah, absolutely. I think. Yeah, mentality coming in. Was that we were happy to run around and to move to different places and see the world and try and try out as many things as we could. But I think once my oldest Molly is close to high school, I think that's around that time where Will be a real priority for us to be established and settled and confident that we want to stay in one place. Yeah, we've got. We've got some time to that point comes. So yes, until that point. We're yeah, we're just Open to explore. Well, yeah, I think that's a great mentality to have like it. It can very easily sort of held you back. I suppose in that regard and speaking of what, what sort of I mean, how old were you when you have made the decision to have kids and, you know, I don't know person that you and your partner or High School sweethearts, they've known each other for a very long time. Ever. Since you were young adults or teenagers what was the sort of decision behind to have children? And right now, you're father of three and a very successful law student as well. What was the, what was the decision? Sort of behind us? Yeah, so we yeah, we've been together this into a 17 years old, so it's going on 12th. The decision wasn't a lot one. It was something that We talked a lot about, you know, kids are a priority to us and something that will really keen on doing earlier in life than later. And so we'd been together five or six years at that point in time, when we decided to have Molly and It's the best decision. I think we've ever made was very fantastic. Yeah. And with law school and and children and the obligations that both entail. How do you go around managing that? You know if you've got exams coming up but you've got a swimming Carnival you get to or something of that nature. You know, what's is it? Something that you're constantly juggling? Is that an added layer of stress? I think that you would have that has other more students wouldn't. Yeah, I think it's a definitely, a challenging part of studying more, that otherwise wouldn't have been there for sure. One of my biggest priorities is to always be there for the kids and to make all the events that I can. And yeah, in order to achieve that, I think we've just developed a routine. That's quite rigid. And in terms of when I can and can't study and when I have to work and between Managing my time as thoroughly as I can. I've managed to make it work which has been good. But yeah, it's definitely been difficult at times. Yeah, around exam periods. There's kind of these two week blocks where inevitably I'm going to be away more than I'd like to be or staying up much later than I'd like to be. And I think that's part of part of the bouncing act, really? Yeah. Yeah. And with, with children in the mix, do you feel that the university is accommodated, you quite well, other systems in place and things like that, that, you know, allow you to undertake these sort of parenting parenting obligations when you need to and things like that. Yeah, unsw has been fantastic. So far. I think I've had no issues on the uniform. I think at the end of the day you still a student and you have you have your deadlines and you're probably. So you have to make in terms of class times, you can always manage destruction and Fairly well to fit in within, you know, General Life as well which is been really, really good. Um, so yeah, it's it's been a great experience so far. I think there's plenty of parents in the JD cohort that I've seen as well, which is Is really surprising to be honest. I thought I'd be an odd one out. Yeah, there's quite a few. So, yeah, you're far from a line, which is a big part of it as well. You've got that support from your peers which is cool. I mean, personally, I know that you have quite above standard. Mark, Mark brains. You set yourself for quite High Wham, you and it sounds like the secret to that is is a routine is scheduling and time management. Especially, you know, in your busy life, do you have other systems in place, you know, things like budgeting and things like that? That you use perhaps that again, just sort of able to eat more easily manage the different obligations of you that you've got? Yeah, definitely, so yeah, coming in to a JD program. I think my advice to anyone and especially anyone that also has children and will be working at same time is to definitely come in with a budget in line and to know where your finances are at and how far you can push it, it's no, no surprise. If you get back to study when you have young families that, yeah, financially going to go back. With you, we prepared for that. So I had been working for two or three years full-time. After my undergrad degree and we decide that enough money to sort of facilitate working part-time and Doing things a bit different over in the Sydney side. So yeah, it was definitely a part of it as well as knowing where you're at. And so you work part-time and you're part of Works full-time or part-time as well. I work part-time at the moment, three days a week, I have done for most of my degree and then my partner is a teacher by trade. So she was she was working relief teaching, which is a good source of income. And then, when my third daughter was born, started last year, she's gone back to being at home as well. So, yeah, but she'll start teaching again soon. I think in the next six months. Yeah, yeah, well yeah, that's I think a very important Arrangement as well. I think being there to support each other for both you and your partner. I mean you're studying obviously partner working and things like that. It's a team at the end of the day, I think with that out of with that, that being there. I think it becomes even even more difficult, I think for things like taking care of kids and and So yeah, it's a very it's very inspirational stuff what you're doing. I mean I want to say congratulations on your recent Clash of Kingwood mallesons, you've got that sort of on the horizon. What do you find a? How did you find the application process throughout that? Did you find things like family coming up in interviews and things like that? Yeah, it was something that I thought long and hard about when it came to the interview process it was yeah the clerkship application process generally is quite challenging. I think everyone is well aware of that who's been through it or is anticipating going through it. In terms of the interview side, I didn't bring it up personally. Although sometimes it did come up naturally in a conversation and it was it was definitely a talking point. I don't think many Clarks come through. Yeah, with some children behind them as well. So yeah, I think that definitely made me stand out at times and but yeah, generally it was it was more a focus on the professional and educational experiences that I have that kind of landed myself to the roles. But yeah it was yeah it's a challenge process for sure. I think anyone that's considering going through it is set aside some time and Consider how you gonna go about your application and where you should apply to and some long hard thoughts about those things? Because yeah, kidney can really set yourself up in terms of Future creates role. Yeah, I mean I suppose it would have been a testament to your hard work, working and diligent nature. I suppose if what, when it came up. So that's a like, I think it would be a very big green tick on in your area in your application and I suppose What what will be most looking forward to I think, at the Clark shift stage and what were you most looking forward to? I think with in the law sort of post study, are you looking at building? You know, it's commercial or something that seriously interests you for the long term or is it you sort of, you know, families in the mix there and other sorts of things? What's the, what's the Horizon for kale? Yeah, no, it's a good question. I think, as far as I understand, like, my parents situation, and the things that I'm interested, I'm definitely can and commercial law. It's something I became to pursue and one of the big upsides of the Clark ship process. I think for everyone is that you get to really get a good look inside of what the day-to-day work is. And, and whether or not it's for you. I think, for some people, they might go through that process and jump out the other side and look for other things. But for me personally, it's definitely it's to keep priority. It's where I see myself heading for now. And so yeah, I'm going to that one. As far as I can and imagine families a very big motivator. Oh, huge. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. It's a big motivator for me to provide for my family. It's something that I Take very seriously. So yeah that's all of it for sure. And do you think that being a parent in law school to shape or framed lore in a certain way? Do you think that it's changed you as a person? I think the experience of yeah, going through law school as a parent, definitely, definitely has for sure. Yes, one of the most challenging things I've ever been through and it's certainly the same for my partner as well. It's been at times very stressful and that definitely is changed how we look at life and we're heading and all those things in it. So but yeah, generally I think it's been a positive experience. It's taught us what we're capable of and what we can achieve together as a team. So Yeah, it's been plenty of learning experience along the way. So basically last call I'll move on to the standard questions that we ask all of our guests. Now, first question is, what was your favorite subject? What has been your favorite subject in law school? And what? Yeah, tough question. Oh, I'd say, I enjoyed criminal law off the get sure, probably the most I think coming into law school. It's what I Associated the law, the most weave and naturally the kind of subject matter you do with is fascinating. I have a background in neuroscience and psychological Sciences the Reasons why people do things, he's always something that's kind of at the Forefront of my mind. And criminal law is is one thing that I apparently enjoyed on that front. Just rating and learning about the processes. We have in place to deal with sort of the fringes of society and what goes on there. So, I would say crimson one of them. Yeah, and I did when you came into law school. Did you, did you have a completely open mind or did you kind of have an idea that commercial law? Was the air that you'd end up, or what was the like did doing criminal, practicing criminal, whatever across your mind? Yeah, no definitely. Did I came in, completely? Yeah. With no expectations about where I'd end up. As I mentioned before, briefly, I hadn't considered studying law at any point in my life until I was about 24 years old. So, I didn't know much about law. I didn't know much about commercial law or even more. So coming in it was it was definitely something else taking as a kid and yeah, on the criminal side, I think I sort of ruled that out due to the subject matter. Yeah. As something that I don't know if I'd be cut out for ya handling in the professional kind of capacity. So yeah, that was one of the big factors. I think you have to be pretty strong, and emotionally resilient person to go down that road and absolutely, yeah, I don't know for swimming. Yeah, for sure what's one habit? You believe has been pivotal to your success as a little student. I'd say cliche it as it is time. Management has been the biggest one and being rigorous with it as well. Those boundaries are so important. For all law students. I think. And it's especially true for JD students or anyone else that's working and balancing, you know, multiple obligations and responsibilities at the same time. So I think if you come into a law degree with the capacity, to manage your time properly and set aside the time you need to study I think you'll set yourself up for Success there, for sure, that's great advice. Can you name a book or a movie? That's been significant to you and when you recommend a student book or a movie you put me on the spot. Jace. Sorry, I don't know. I don't know if I have one of the top of my head. Oh, I think since I started law school, I put down the book so it's been a long time since I've read anything other than the law takes. Yeah. Maybe introduction into corporations. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That might be the one. Yeah. A lot of textbooks are always. I mean, that's back question. I mean a lot of students I think yeah. Like they really do struggle to read anything outside of. I mean, certainly happens with me so yeah, I think that's a very honest answer. Yeah. Four questions. Did you always envisioned yourself practicing in the field that you're in? And if not, what did you think you do when you started well, prior to law school? What did you think you do straight out of high school and things like that? Yeah, yeah. Now I've had a very kind of unconventional path to get to this point of my degree. Yeah, I started out straight out of high school. I took a year off to work as many people do from Regional Australia to save up the money to move to the to the city. I started out studying physiotherapy which is what happened up until that point, I thought I was destined for really and I made it about one semester and then I jumped out of there pretty quick. Yeah, it wasn't what I thought today. I was kind of sold myself on this idea of being Something like closely related to Sport, and that was something I loved as a kid. So I went in with that expectation, that I'd be end up working at a footy club or something and it was going to be my life and and all credit to the the staff at Curtin physiotherapy school. They they were very quick to not get out of everyone. They made it a point. I think that's a year after year and now it said that's not what this is about, at all. so yeah, I got out of there pretty quick and After that point, I worked for a bit and went to Tafe did a Tafe certificate in conservation and Land Management. Yeah, that led me to work in as a landscape as well. So I worked there for two years as a landscape. And then yeah. So after that point, I figured I've tried everything else so I went back to you. This at that time, I went to UNI out of interest and not out of kind of professional aspirations. I chose what I thought be an interesting subject matter, which was neuroscience and philosophy and Thoroughly enjoyed that and like I said, no career kind of in mind. As I did that degree incline of yeah, came out the other end and realized employment is quite difficult. Yes. As it is for many degrees I suppose but specially on your science is a small field especially in wa. So um yeah ended up working in the financial advice industry back in Albany when we moved back down there, And then Fiat from their kind of started really thinking about the law. So, yeah, it's been a long unconventional journey. I don't have kind of a concrete career goal in mind, and I think, I think it's it's difficult to do when you're young, you're 18, 18, 19 in making these decisions for like your future and where you're going to end up. And it's it's difficult to know where, you know what suits you and what you're interested in. So, I suppose my advice to anyone who's looking at law. Now, any degree for that matter would be to let yourself kind of explore your options, a bit drill really high in and what you're interested in because that's where I ended up now, and it's worked out quite well for. Yeah, I mean there, I think there are plenty of students as well, like a specialty in early years, which have to be disheartened, or yet their idea of the law or their idea of their aspirations, might not be as cookie cutter as they once thought. And I suppose adapting to that and the rules are really great field, where there's a lot of hats that you can wear as a lot of occupations and disciplines that you can choose, you know, and they're all so very different to one another. So it is a very broad field but just more broadly in relation to life. I think you don't. I think a reoccurring thing that I've seen across many guests not a Someone like Michael Kirby, who thought he was going to judge by age eight but broadly speaking like, yeah, a lot of people don't have a real clear-cut idea. I think that that is a benefit because it makes you more adaptable to the situation of you. So yeah, that's a thank you for sharing your story onto our last question. What's the greatest piece of advice you've ever received or perhaps the greatest piece of advice you've ever heard in this sort of stuck into your brain? Yeah, I'd say the greatest piece of advice, I suppose I've ever received would be to just jump into the things that you can on and interested in. And for me that's worked out. Extremely well, I think it's easy to hide behind your reservations and your fears and but yeah, when it came to family and studying career opportunities, I think, when you put your foot forward and and Go after what you came for. It's definitely something that will pay off in the long run. So yeah, I'd say that's it. There's no need to wait for the perfect time. Exactly. Yeah, just do it. Yeah, just go for it. Well, Kyle, that's all the time we have for today. So thank you so much for sitting down with me and it's been a pleasure to have you on. Thanks for having me, Matt. Thank you. It are you a law student applying for Clark ships this year? You're not alone, get free access to Great iq's Law. Clerkship toolkit containing detailed firm profiles, clock checklists and CV and cover letter templates. Want to go further the grout IQ Academy pairs you one-on-one with mentors who've got offers from linklaters Allen's and widen case you'll get tailored CV feedback, mock interviews and advanced networking and Commercial awareness prep. The best part you only pay if you learn an offer head to grad iq.com and apply now and make sure to tell them that you listen to the Australian law student. Thanks to great IQ for supporting the podcast.