Transcript
Hello and welcome to Season 3 of
the Australian Law Student
Podcast.
I'm your host, Oliver Hammond
and in today's episode I had the
pleasure of speaking with one of
Australia's leading human rights
barristers, Kate Eastman.
From being told that a human
rights practice at the bar was
non existent to leading landmark
cases in discrimination,
employment and public interest
law, Kate shares her journey of
resilience, advocacy and impact.
We also discuss what it's like
being a senior counselor
assisting a royal Commission and
the unique challenges of turning
lived experiences into legal
reform.
This episode offers invaluable
insights for aspiring lawyers
passionate about driving change
through the law.
Are.
You a law student applying for
clerkships this year?
You're not alone.
Get free access to Grad IQ's Law
Clerkship Toolkit, containing
detailed firm profiles,
clerkship lists, and CV and
cover letter templates.
Want to go further?
The Grad IQ Academy pairs you
one-on-one with mentors who've
got offers from Linklaters,
Allen's and Wyden case.
You'll get tailored CV feedback,
mock interviews, and advanced
networking and commercial
awareness prep.
The best part?
You only pay if you land an
offer.
Head to gradiq.com dot AU and
apply now and make sure to tell
them that you listen to the
Australian Law Student.
Thanks to Grad IQ for supporting
the podcast.
Thanks so much, Kate, for
joining with me today.
I'm very excited to have you on
the podcast.
You've had a lot of experience
in human rights practice at the
bar and when you first came, you
were set on building a human
rights practice, but you were
told it was sort of non existent
or perhaps fringe.
Yet today you've had a major
impact in areas like
discrimination, employment and
public interest law.
What challenges did you face
early on and were there any key
moments or cases that made you
feel like yes, this is possible?
And looking at the pressure now,
has it become easier for younger
lawyers to build a humans rights
practice?
Well, thank you for having me on
the podcast.
I'm really pleased to be able to
participate.
And you've started with a really
big set of questions here, all
of us.
So thanks very much.
What I do call my practice a
human rights practice.
And when I first started out
finishing law school, I really
wanted to work in the area of
human rights.
In those days we did have one
subject called human rights, but
it was very much sort of focused
on international human rights
law and not much on Australian
law.
So I then went to London and
studied human rights as part of
an LLM at London.
And I could really sort of see
what was happening in the UK,
which was because the UK was
sort of part of the Strasbourg
European Court of Human Rights,
that human rights was sort of
becoming more talked about in
the UK and its application in
the common law.
And I thought, look, this is
something we should be doing in
Australia.
So when I came back, I worked in
a large commercial law firm and
that sort of seemed to be really
far away from what I wanted to
do around human rights, but I
just sort of had that driver.
So there was a couple of things
I did. 1 is with my very dear
friend and now super famous
playwright Susie Miller.
We've both been in London at the
same time and we thought why
don't we set up an organization
for lawyers that even if they
work in commercial law or areas
that are not traditionally human
rights, but they have an
interest in human rights.
That we can share our knowledge,
our information and our
experiences about human rights,
touching on the work that we do
if we work in commercial law, if
we work for government, whatever
it might be.
So setting up Australian Lawyers
for Human Rights was one step
that I took to start to develop
a practice in the sense that I
got to know people with similar
interests and I got to
understand sort of areas that
they worked in.
The other thing was that when I
was first starting out in
commercial legal practice, so
this is very early 1990s, is
there was this movement to open
up pro bono work.
And the law firm that I worked
for set up a pro bono committee
and I volunteered to be part of
that committee.
And then that meant that I could
have some involvement with the
law firm about the types of pro
bono cases that we took on.
And they were very open to
thinking about pro bono work,
not just as favours for the
partners, next door neighbors or
children or whatever it might
be, but what might actually have
an A bigger impact on the public
interest and human rights cases.
So that commercial law firm gave
me the opportunity personally to
go and work in Port Hedland on a
range of cases for asylum
seekers who were among the first
asylum seekers to be detained in
Australia.
But I also got the opportunity
to work at Kingsford Legal
Centre.
And so as I was starting to
develop my practice in
commercial law, I was seeing the
threads or connections with
human rights.
And after about three years
doing commercial law, I was
like, OK, I really just need to
be doing human rights all the
time.
And as a law student, I'd worked
for the Privacy Commissioner and
the Sex Discrimination
Commissioner, Quentin Bryce, as
a law student.
And so when a job came up at the
Australian Human Rights
Commission, was in the Human
Rights and Equal Opportunity
Commission, I just thought this
is the job for me.
So I applaud.
I was very fortunate to get that
job and it meant that I was sort
of working purely on human
rights matters at the Human
Rights Commission.
And then after about three years
doing that work, the pool was
then to go to the bar.
And that's where people said,
no, there's not a human rights
bar and there's not a human
rights practice.
And I thought, well, I'll make
one.
And maybe probably as a younger
person, that might sort of sound
a bit like, what did you think
you were doing?
But to me, I thought, this is
something I really want to do.
And there's human rights in
everything we do.
Litigation is about the right to
a fair trial.
That's a human right.
When we educate people, give
people the opportunity to
participate in public affairs,
that's all human rights.
So I really wanted to think
about how to take a human rights
framework and apply it to the
work that I was doing and to be
proud to talk about having a
human rights practice rather
than it being sort of seen as
something a bit strange or
fringe or a bit sort of not a
serious type of practice.
There's probably some people out
there still today who think
human rights is not a serious
practice.
But if you reflect on the impact
of human rights on everybody's
lives and the sorts of cases
that come before the courts,
there's so much human rights and
being able to talk about human
rights and identify them as
human rights practices, that
would be good, you know, a good
thing.
So challenges were just having
that commitment to saying my
practice is human rights without
sort of being worried what
people thought about that and
and also that your practices
that are not one-dimensional.
So some people know me and my
practice from an employment law
perspective.
So they would say I'm an
employment lawyer.
Others would know me as a sort
of regulatory working in
regulatory health or
disciplinary matters or
administrative law or education
law.
Is that the human rights nature
of the work you can do is spread
across a whole lot?
There is, yeah.
So I hope that sort of answers
the big question.
Yeah, that you've asked me right
at the beginning.
And I hope it's sort of a way of
saying any young lawyer who
wants to build a human rights
practice can do so.
But think about that concept of
human rights quite broadly, that
even if you're a tax lawyer,
there can be human rights issues
in tax law.
Criminal lawyers have got human
rights issues.
So it's not a human rights
practice or something else.
It's building a practice that
brings a right space focus to
it.
Yeah, I mean, it's amazing to
sit down with one of The
Pioneers, I think of, of the
human rights practice.
And I suppose were there any
points along the journey where
perhaps it was perhaps
encouraging, like you saw
encouraging signs that this was
perhaps possible to become a
reality?
You spoke perhaps a little bit
about your youthfulness at the
time and the fact that you sort
of the fact that there wasn't a
human rights practice meant that
you could build 1 and, and, and
starting from scratch was
something that you you sort of
took on and, and used to
motivate you in relation to
that.
So yeah.
Were there any steps perhaps
along the journey?
Yeah, I think, I think coming
back to building a community of
like minded people, so
Australian Noise for Human
Rights and other organizations
that were really interested in
human rights, participating in
those organizations was really
helpful to me to find other
people who had a similar
interest, but also to learn from
them about how they'd build
their practice and develop their
practice.
And while you might call me a
pioneer, I would look to someone
like Justice Michael Kirby as
the as one of the true pioneers
because he as a judge on
particularly the Court of Appeal
in NSW was able to describe the
issues, whether it be a cost
issue or a stay issue or
procedural issue, a criminal law
issue through a human rights
lens.
And then he took that approach
when he was on the High Court.
And so being able to look to how
the law could be applied was
really helpful as well.
And then also what I did notice
over the time is teaching human
rights in law schools really
took off in the late 90s and
2000s.
And so now if you look at
electives in law schools,
there's human rights all over
the place.
Like lots of people do all sorts
of different human rights
courses.
And one of the things I was able
to do as part of, you know,
building my expertise in that
area was also to teach.
So back also in very early 90s,
I started teaching human rights
and civil liberties at the
University of Technology in
Sydney as an elective subject
for undergraduate law and that
also sort of sharpened up my
skills as well.
Is that to be able to build the
practice, people had to
recognise that you had the
expertise and being able to say
that you taught in the area as
well as practised in the area
was really important as well.
So bit of a multi dimensional
area in that.
Regard, absolutely.
And I think it's you're right,
the the presence in law schools
today of human rights laws and
electives and things like that
is so prevalent that yeah, it's
it's almost certain that a law
student is going to encounter
human rights in some way or
another.
So thanks so much for your
answer to that.
We'll now change tack and move
on to my second question.
As senior council assisting the
Disability Royal Commission,
you've been at the heart of
uncovering systemic failures
while pushing for reform.
I suppose we'd like to get to
know what it's like being inside
a royal Commission grappling
with personal testimonies,
translating them into legal
findings and handling the weight
of responsibility.
Also, are there specific legal
challenges unique to royal
commissions, like parliamentary
privilege, for example?
And in your view, what kind of
Royal Commission model works
best for driving real change?
Well, thank you for that
question, because for all
lawyers, if you ever have the
opportunity to work in or for or
with the Royal Commission, I'd
really, we encourage anyone to
take that opportunity because
our royal commissions are really
different to court processes.
They're established by
government, they appoint royal
commissioners and a royal
Commission has really extensive
powers so it can obtain
documents from people.
Even if they don't want to give
you the documents, you can
require them to attend to give
evidence.
And one thing a royal Commission
can do, which is really
different to a court process, is
that it can look at systemic and
broad issues.
So in a court process, people
are bringing their particular
dispute before a court and
asking the judge to decide who's
right and who's wrong in that
particular court case.
And the judges sort of really
focused a little bit like on
ancient history.
So the judge has to go back and
look at what happened, how did
these people enter into their
contract or their employment
relationship, What went wrong?
And then why did it go wrong?
And if it did go wrong, you know
who's responsible for that?
So what's the outcome?
So you're looking back in time
in ordinary litigation, whereas
a royal Commission is saying we
think there's a broader public
policy issue here or there's a
problem that has occurred in the
past and we need to find answers
to ensuring that it doesn't
happen in the future.
So the royal Commission I was
involved in as council assisting
had a particular focus on
violence, abuse, neglect and
exploitation of people with
disability.
And that royal Commission really
had a focus on hearing very much
from people with lived
experience of disability about
what their problems had been,
what their life experience was.
But really importantly, what did
they think needs to change and
what was their advice based on
their lived experience as to
what we needed to do to either
improve our laws, our policies.
But the really big thing that
came out of that royal
Commission was changing our
attitudes as a community to
people with disability.
So to be able to take that
information out of a royal
Commission, the job of council
assisting is it's pretty varied
in a royal Commission.
But one of the front facing jobs
that people are aware of is
where they're all commissioned,
like our royal Commission.
Here's evidence from people
about their particular personal
experiences and we felt in that
Royal Commission that we really
needed to expose some pretty
hard and harrowing experiences
so that the broader community
could really see what lived
experience was for people with
disability in their day-to-day
life.
And to say that if there had
been violence and abuse or
neglect in their life, we need
to know that, understand that,
and from that we can work
towards solutions.
So we didn't shy away from hard
things.
But as a lawyer, it also means
bringing a whole range of
skills.
It's not just giving a written
legal advice as to what the
outcome should be, but it's
engaging with people and so
really building relationships
with our witnesses, consulting
with a broader community.
I'm really making sure that we
could properly understand those
experiences were quite
important.
So as you said, some of them are
really very traumatic
experiences.
They were hard things to present
publicly, but we wanted to do
that in a way that was sensitive
and trauma informed.
So that was sort of part of the
the real focus on the personal
testimonies.
One thing with the royal
Commission is it's time limited,
so you've got to get a lot of
work done very quickly and
sometimes it can be very high
expectations on a royal
Commission delivering.
But you might have seen from our
Royal Commission that we had
just over 4 years to do our work
and we delivered a very
extensive report with over 200
recommendations.
So it was fairly intense period
of time for work.
But as you've said, you've asked
me the question about the
specific legal challenges you
need to royal commissions.
Parliamentary privilege is one
thing, and that's the extent to
which what happens in the
parliaments can be used in the
royal Commission.
And the same sort of rules that
apply to the use of any evidence
that might come out of a
parliamentary process applies to
the royal Commission.
But the unique features, I think
of the royal Commission is the
royal commission's extensive
powers to get information and to
hear from people who may not
ordinarily ever make their way
into a court process.
So the royal Commission can do
that.
And the other really interesting
legal part of the royal
Commission, and not all royal
commissions have this, is to be
able to take evidence in private
sessions.
So the royal Commission I worked
in was one where people could
tell their stories almost in an
anonymous way so that they would
share their experiences with one
of the royal commissioners and
that would be a private session.
And from that private session,
the royal commissioners could
learn more about a particular
issue where the person involved
did not want to tell their story
publicly or didn't want to be on
the live broadcast or for people
to know who they were.
And those private sessions which
are confidential and the Royal
Commissions that keeps that
information and identities of
people confidential was a really
significant part of ensuring
that we could get to what some
of the really serious issues in
addressing disability were in
our community.
So Royal Commissions, a
fantastic opportunity to work in
them, some pretty hard work.
And if you ask me about sort of
driving change, it has got the
capacity to drive change.
But ultimately a royal
Commission can only make
recommendation that's really up
to government or the broader
community to embrace those
recommendations and say we we
also commit as a community and
the government to those changes.
So sometimes people get a bit
disappointed because not all the
recommendations are accepted.
But when recommendations are
accepted, you can really see the
benefit of the community having
that direct engagement and
seeing change in how our laws
are made and how they apply into
the future.
Yeah, certainly.
And I think yeah, you're exactly
right with lawyers who are in
royal commissions.
I do think that it's such a, a
unique opportunity and I think
that that is a an amazing
opportunity to drive change in
a, in a really hand in hand way
with government.
And so thank you so much for
sharing your experience.
Oh, it's my, you're welcome.
And, and it's not just me.
We had a really big team at that
royal Commission.
And one thing I would say about
working at that royal Commission
was just the talent.
The depth of talent and
commitment of all my colleagues
in that royal Commission was
just extraordinary.
And it was just such a great
pleasure working with such an
amazing team of people and many
of whom live with disability and
I learnt so much from them.
So that was just such an honour
to be able to serve as council
assisting.
Yeah.
Thanks so much for sharing your
experience.
We'll now move on to some
standard questions that we ask
all of our guests for our
listeners to get to know the
guests a little bit better.
I'll start off with the first
question.
What was your favorite subject
in law school and and why?
My favorite subject was
international law.
I just loved all things
international law.
So and again when I studied law,
there wasn't the sort of breadth
and range of international law
subjects on offer, but I just, I
found international law was this
real intersection between
international relations,
international politics and then
how law wraps around that and
the systems of the UN and then
obviously all the human rights
related systems.
So I still have.
As my first love international
law.
So no, no contest about that
whatsoever.
That's a great choice.
That's.
A great choice.
The second question, what's 1
habit you believe is being
pivotal to your success as as
previously as?
A law student.
Well, when when I knew you were
going to ask me this question,
I'm like, I'm not quite sure I
could sort of say success is a
law student and on one level.
But if I reflect back on my time
as a law student and the volume
of work and reading that always
trying to sort of keep on top of
things and not leave things to
the last minute was really
important.
I had probably the benefit, but
at the time I didn't really
think it was a benefit, is that
I used to have to travel by
public transport to law school
and that was about an hour and a
half each way.
So some days I might spend 3
hours on public transport, but I
got all my reading done so.
So I think just doing that
reading and being on top of the
work is really important.
And the other thing for me when
I look at my time at law school
and I love being there, was
getting involved in the life of
the law school.
And I know this has really
changed for current law students
because you have a lot of
lectures online and perhaps less
time at law school on campus.
And so being able to be involved
in that law community is really
important.
So I was quite involved in the
Law Society and ALSA when I was
at law school, and to me that
really helped me learn a lot
more about life, people's
experiences, and to also develop
some fantastic friendships and
networks that have stayed with
me forever, like they're still
ongoing and probably will be.
So I think just learning from
your books is one thing, but
participating in the life of the
law school and the legal
community is really important as
well.
That's great advice.
With the third question, could
you name a book or a movie or
we've had plays in the past as
well before that's been
significant to you and one you'd
recommend to students?
This is really hard in a, in a
way, in terms of recommending to
students, but I think as I've
got older, I've been really
interested in reading
biographies often of people who
have been lawyers or started out
as lawyers.
And so I'm just, I was always
been a big fan of Ruth Bader
Ginsburg.
And I remember once when she
came to visit the Bar
Association, she was tiny and in
that tiny person who made a
really big difference to human
rights in the USI found reading
her biography and then more
recently the films about her and
back to my, you know, friend
Susie Miller, who we started
Australian Noise for Human
rights has become super famous.
You know, she's written the RBG
play.
And so that was one thing I
thought reading both the book
saying the work that RBG did and
also then how that's been
interpreted for the stage makes
her life accessible, but it's
also her her contribution to
jurisprudence, which is so
interesting.
So that's following that life
trajectory, I think is really
interesting.
Equally rating the biography of
Sir Garfield Barwick, David
Maher, right, That's
fascinating.
You know, that's fascinating as
well.
So understanding where lawyers
have come from and how they
become lawyers is, you know,
interesting.
And then my other one, because I
have great admiration for our
first woman on the High Court,
Mary Gordon.
She is and still an amazing
person.
You know, in terms of her
thinking about the world and
perspective on the world and her
contribution to Australian law
is that there's a biography
about her.
I don't think she's she was so
keen on that biography being
written about her.
But to see how the first woman
judge on our High Court came
through her life experience and
education is really interesting
as well.
And I suppose for me, because I
know Justice Gordon personally
is to, it's a really interesting
thing when you know the person
but also get the opportunity to
read about their life as well.
So there is a few books, but my
focus is on biographies just to
sort of say what have been other
people's pathways and and
understanding that can be really
helpful as well.
There's some great suggestions
and I can imagine with just
Gordon you could Fact Check some
of the the things that perhaps
were going.
On you definitely, you
definitely can.
And she will tell you she's
still very strong and forthright
in her view.
She will certainly, you know,
tell you what the the facts have
been.
And she's no, she's been amazing
supporter of women in the
profession as of many of the
Trail Blazers of women in our
profession.
And I, you know, I admire and
look up to them, but I sort of
see our generation as holding
the baton and then that baton
passes to the next generation.
And as you know, now, like the
majority of law students are
women and the majority of
solicitors NSW and across the
country are women.
We haven't quite got there with
the bar.
We've got a way to go on that,
but I still think that looking
at at women who blaze these
trials, if I can use that sort
of cliche, it really gives us a
sense that equality and respect
for our colleagues and inclusion
in our profession is still so
important, but it can be fragile
as well.
And so each generation has to
commit to wanting the legal
profession to be the best that
it can be and inclusive in terms
of representing our community.
So that's what I take from
reading those sort of
biographies as well.
It's a good reminder that it's
not just someone who's done that
many years ago, but it's an
ongoing commitment that we
should all have to our
profession and our profession
service to our the people in in
Australia.
Yeah, thanks so much for your
answer to that.
Did you always envision yourself
practicing in the field you're
in?
And if not, what did you think
you'd do when you'd started law
school?
Or perhaps but even prior to
university?
Well, that's sort of, I probably
partly answered that question
earlier and, and I mean from
quite a young time it at school,
I just was very interested in
human rights and social justice.
So if there was a way of feeling
I could make a contribution
professionally to human rights,
that's what I wanted to do.
But at law school, as I was
saying, like people didn't
really talk about human rights,
so you couldn't really go and do
a summer clocks.
You put an internship at a human
rights organization, so I wasn't
sort of sure at law school what
I would actually do, but I knew
I was interested in
international law or human
rights, and so I've been fairly
focused on that the whole time.
It's not like I went to law
school thinking I'd be a tax
lawyer and suddenly changed.
But that's really been a common
thread in in what I've done.
I would say like the fact that I
had that in my head.
That doesn't mean that, you
know, you have to have a fixed
view before you go into law
school.
I think one thing about lorries,
you get such interesting cases
and life experiences across the
board that being open to what
might interest you in law is
also a great thing for us as we
get to know and meet so many
different people.
We often see people at the worst
part of their lives that going
to court is probably the hardest
day for some people in their
lives or their families,
depending on, you know, what the
issues might be.
And so you don't have to have a
fixed view about the area that
you want to work in.
And probably keeping an open
mind is a good thing.
Maybe people would have said to
me, I could have kept a more
open in terms of my interest in
human rights.
But as I said at the beginning,
I've been able to really blend
that into a whole range of
different areas.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Again, thank you so much for
your answer to that question.
We're running out of time, so
I'll move on to the last
question.
What's the greatest piece of
advice that you've ever
received?
Well, I think it's probably two
things.
And one is never compare
yourself to someone else.
That you as a legal practitioner
have your own responsibilities
and it doesn't matter what the
person next to you is doing or
the person behind you or in
front of you.
Always have yourself as your own
measure of what are your ethical
obligations.
What do you want to achieve and
how do you want to sort of in
effect run your business as a
legal practitioner.
So don't compare yourself to
other people and don't always
sort of feel then, well, they're
doing something and I should be
forget that.
Focus on yourself.
And the second is when you start
law, I think you often have this
sense that you've had 4-5 or six
years at law school, so you've
just got to get in there and
achieve really quickly.
Take a deep breath on that.
You're going to have to be
working probably till you're in
your mid or late 70s.
So if you've got a 50 year
career ahead of you as a lawyer,
you do not need to do everything
in the first five years.
And so I think put perspective
and think about what you want to
do over the longer term and that
law might be a career for a
short period of time.
You can go off and do different
things and then always come back
to the law.
Think about the law as sort of a
longer term journey and what you
learn at law school now is going
to be really different to what
you'll be doing in practicing
law in 20-30, forty or 50 years
time.
So that race to try to become a
partner really quickly or go to
the bar really quickly, you
don't need to do all of that,
but to take time and to think
about the long game on law and
fit breaks and have time for
yourself and your family during
that period of time.
So there's the two bits of
advice.
That's great advice.
Yeah.
I think that's important for you
all to hear.
So, Kate, and thank you so much
for joining me today, and I wish
you all the best for the rest.
Of the year.
Absolute pleasure and good luck
with the podcast and I'm very
happy to be involved.
Thank you.
Thanks, Oliver.
Are you a law student applying
for clerkships this year?
You're not alone.
Get free access to Grad IQ's Law
Clerkship Toolkit, containing
detailed firm profiles,
clerkship lists, and CV and
cover letter templates.
Want to go further?
The Grad IQ Academy pairs you
one-on-one with mentors who've
got offers from Linklaters,
Allen's and Wyden case.
You'll get tailored CV feedback,
mock interviews, and advanced
networking and commercial
awareness prep.
The best part?
You only pay if you land an
offer.
Head to gradiq.com dot AU and
apply now and make sure to tell
them that you listen to the
Australian Law Student.
Thanks to Grad IQ for supporting
the podcast.