Labor Politics & The Law | Dr Hugh McDermott

Hello and welcome to the Australian Law Student Podcast. I'm your host Oliver Hammond and welcome to our first episode for 2024. In today's episode we're honoured to have with this NSW State Labour MP, Doctor Hugh McDermott. Now before I introduce Doctor McDermott, just a quick disclaimer. The Australian Law Student Podcast is by no means politically affiliated and strives for political neutrality, engaging with politicians from all parties to explore diverse legal perspectives. Later on in the year we will continue to interview politicians from all areas and we believe it is up to you as listeners to form your own beliefs and opinions on the areas of law discussed. Now back to the introduction. Before entering NSW Parliament in 2015 for the relatively new electorate of Prospect Dr., McDermott graduated with a PhD in laws from King's College London and a postgraduate law degree from both the University of Technology Sydney and the University of Sydney. He spent his prior years as an Australian Workers Union lawyer and barrister, along with an array of other jobs. He's now the secretary to the NSW Attorney General and he brings a wealth of experience to this episode. So without a further ado, enjoy the show. Thank you for joining me today on the Australian Law Student Podcast. How are you? Very good, Oliver. Thank you very much for inviting me. This morning. Thank you. I suppose we'll dive straight into our first question. Your path to becoming a politician transitioning from a law student and barrister is far from traditional. Your diverse experiences range from working as a jackaroo in central QLD and a barman at the Whitsundays deserving the Australian. The best part of my career, by the way, Definitely working behind a bar at the Whitsundays. I am Hamilton Island. It was so, yes. Yeah. Very busy nights. Yeah, very good. Well, it's. Certainly one of the most beautiful locations, so yeah. So from the Australian Defence Force and the Australian Workers Union, your journey challenges a more commonly held idea that you need to have a straightforward career path to learn. In high school, law school, law firm, you know that sort of three-step method. Can you share what sparked your interest in politics and you give some insight into your career journey? Yeah, sure, certainly. Yeah. It wasn't the traditional, I mean it's not so much traditional anymore. I mean there was the time when you'd go to to private school and you go into college at City University and then you go on there into the bar or to daddy's law firm. Very different now, very different Now there is still that of course and there's nothing wrong with that. You know, you're lucky. But a lot of people from, you know, throughout NSW from different backgrounds now are are practicing lawyers and do very, very well on the judiciary, on the benches, etcetera. I came from quite a modest background. I didn't particularly like school. It was OK. I enjoyed certain subjects like English and history. But you know, and I didn't go to a school where people went to university. I don't think anybody from my year 12 went to university that went to TAFE, went to trades, went to the army, but very few went to university. I can't imagine, I can't actually think of anybody who did. And of course, as like you said, I worked as a jackaroo in central QLD. I worked behind a bar up in the Whitsundays, moved around and it was having and then time in the military. But it was this exposure to low paid jobs, often exploited by employers, not only of myself but seeing others exploited and pushed me more and more towards labour politics, towards trade unionism. And there are many workers today that you know, the workforce has changed. They don't necessarily need trade unions. They did. They have their own, their own self, they have their own power base. But a lot of blue collar workers, a lot of refugees, a lot of people have come into this community over the many years do need trade unions. So that's what pushed me towards that and of course that then led me towards the law as well, because the law is is that one thing in our society that can really help working people, help those who are vulnerable. And I guess that's what led me to that in regards to politics. I end up going down and got a bit of a scholarship to just study at the University of New England. And I went down there and I was a student. Wasn't involved in politics, wasn't involved in the law and the tenement square massacre happened in China other side of the world you could say. But I will sat watching it as a 19 year old, 20 year old student watching these students standing up to tell their own regime and being killed for doing it. And I had a lot of Chinese friends who were postgrad students over from China at the university. And I went up to see the president of the SRC and I said look, I'd like to raise money, I'd like to do something to help these students here and they've got a family back there. And that that gentleman was a, I would say, a political extremist. It's any way you could describe it, because he sat there, explained to me why the Tiananmen Square massacre was justified and how it was for the greater good. And I walked out of that office at 19 and thought, I don't know what I have to do to get rid of him. But that person doesn't represent me. He certainly does represent other students on this campus. And I ran for student politics. I won. I got into the SRC. I challenged the president and I beat him at the election and then that went on and that was my beginning. I wasn't in any political party. I just wanted to do what I thought was right and I thought what represented the students on campus with me. And then we went to the next election and I won everything like I won the whole, the whole SRC. I did that for two years, but that was my beginning in politics. I then moved down to Sydney in the early 90s now and I was in my early 20s and I'd met a man called Terry Shane who some may know but he was the first attorney general in in Iran government and he went on to become a judge and other things. He just recently retired and I met him, didn't know much about Labour politics and he said oh you should come and think about joining the Labour Party. And I said, oh OK, I'll come down and have a talk to you anyway, the rest is history. I joined up and got involved and it all went from there. Well, thanks so much for. Sharing I suppose many students, including those including our listeners, are familiar with and eager to make a positive impact in the world and they see politics as a way to achieve this. In your role as Parliamentary Secretary to the Attorney General of NSW, how has your legal background being beneficial and additionally, what motivated you? I suppose you spoke a little bit about your motivations to join the Labour Party in relation to the perhaps miss the sort of mistreatment of workers throughout your time. Is that something that you still? See today as a. As a as a big problem in in NSW and sort of what things do you think that you do? To address those issues, yes. OK, the the law is very important for any profession, I think, and I think it's one of the few degrees that you should do no matter what you want to be in life. It's it. It trains you in, you know, attention to detail, crafting an argument based on reason and evidence. And we don't have enough of that in politics. You know, Donald Trump's the prime example. You know, he just makes up the facts as he goes along and and you see other politicians do that. It's not just him, but he's probably the most well known example at the moment. But the law school you know if you can't give a a reasoned argument backed up with evidence in your essays or you know in your tutorials and that they fail. So you need to do it well and the better you can do that understanding of doing that the better you also understand legislation because you need to you understand case law and you know and what the role of the of the different arms of government is and you'll learn that even even the first couple of years of law school, not that I don't post grad. So I think that's important. So it's a very good foundation for politics. And unlike the myths, there's not that many lawyers in politics because OK, politicians are paid OK. But if compared to, say, a partner in a big law firm or a silk, you know, and that they make a lot more money. And in fact, when I came into politics, I made a clear decision with my family that I was going to do this because we knew my my salary would drop, right. I wouldn't be earning the money, I'd be be at the bar and so, but that was a conscious decision because I wanted to make a difference, because this is where I that led me, very much so in regards to exploitation of workers, yes, it still happens. We still have an issue with modern slavery and things like that. And I've been very involved with that legislation which we put through in New South Wales. We're the only country now which or the only state that has a modern slavery commissioner. They started off having one in the UK and he worked fairly well and then she. But you know it's been really cut down by the current Tory government over there. We we made sure that eventually it took many years to get legislation through in New South Wales, that we have a modern slavery commissioner. We see exploitation particularly of people who have been trafficked. We see exploitation of, you know, menial jobs, blue collar type jobs still to this day in different areas like construction and that, but also in the laundries and all different type of areas like that. So that's still an issue and it was, you know my experience with all that that that led me along those lines to being a Social Democrat because that's I see myself as a moderate middle ground. I think that my experience when I was in the SRC was dealing with extremists is, you know, and I use that word, I don't use it lightly because, you know, there are those extremists and we've see them just recently with those that group that came up from Melbourne. We're marching with masks on, you know, around Australia and day from the far right, you know, the far right, far left, where they're coming from. You know, there's no real place for them in Australia, I don't think. And there is a place for dialogue, there's a place for debate, etcetera, but not for extremism like that. And I think that's what gravitated me towards the Labour Party because it was very much a Social Democratic and social justice point of view and everything I do. In fact, that's social justice And you know, I'm a Catholic so that you get taught if you're a Catholic or Catholic. Social justice, Fortunately, all Catholics get involved in that. But those, the ones who do, I mean, I think it's quite important as a foundation. And so you spoke a little bit about that, a little bit there about the UK And so your journey obviously began, university journey began at the University of New England and then the University of Sydney, but you also spent some time over at the King's College over in London. How did How was that? Experience. So my my journey was I started doing UNE and I did politics and economic history up there. I came down to Sydney. I hadn't quite finished that degree. I was looking for a job because I was working all the way through. And then I got I was a trade union official and I did quite well as trade union official and it was suggested I go to law school. I went to UTS, did quite well and then I went on to a Masters at Sydney. And then I got a number of scholarships and went across to King's College in London and did a PhD in law. Looking at the impact that globalization had on law reform in Australia, especially during the Hawk Keating years. When we opened the economy, we changed a lot of things. We got rid of the white Australia policy well and truly and all the old immigration policies of a racist basically and embraced Asia, especially on the Keating. So that that that gave me a massive experience and I really encourage anybody who can go and study for a time overseas. When I was at UTS, we went over to to Beijing for a period of time, did a subject there. I mean I know that pretty much all those schools have such exchanges. If you can do it, do it. It's amazing experience. But if you can go into a post, go at Masters or something else overseas, no matter where it is, it's it's a great experience. Thank you for listening to the Australian Law Student Podcast. The following segment is questions from the Bench. Here we ask our guests a set series of questions designed for you to get to know them better and to get the key advice to help you on your journey. Each week we also take a question from you, our audience, Head over to our socials and send us a message to get your question answered. Thanks for listening. OK, these questions. We sort of used to try and make our guests a bit more personable and let our listeners. Connect to you a. Bit more on. Personal level. So I'll start for the first one. What was your favorite subject in law? School Okay my favorite subjects in law school with international economic law and national trade law. Haven't used them a great deal, but there were great subjects and there was a lot of moots and stuff involved in those subjects. So you had to really craft your argument and your advocacy. But I should talk about the one I hated the most, right, which was contract law. I hated contract law and I failed it first year, right. So OK, I've got honours in my degrees, I've got a PhD in law, one of the top law schools in the world, but I failed contract law and I could not believe it. I hated this subject with a passion. And so I remember, and one of the things at the time that the classes, I was working full time, so I couldn't make it to all the chutes. So they marked me down for that. And so I was so angry. As you imagine, next year came back HD, right? There you go. Creamed it right. I made sure I did that and I had a different teacher the second time. And I complain and complain and complain to all throughout the semester. And then I go to Kings PhD you know can't wait. The supervisors, the professors come to me and says we're going to have you teach law This year I went wonderful well, probably about five or six classes. Oh wonderful. Says I want you to teach contract law. So I taught contract law from I went from hating it to actually really liking it now but well back then. But it was it was the thing And my professor at UTS rang me up when he she found out that I was teaching contract law and just paid out on me. Right. So anyway, so that's the story about myself. That's. A great story, I suppose, about contracts. And I think, I think a lot of students are at that point right now where they're doing contracts. I know you're in Southwest right now in the first three contracts. So, yeah, yeah, certainly. It permeates everything in the law, and you might be hiding it now. As you progress through, no matter what you actually area you really enjoy. You'll find that the contracts permeate everything you do and that offer acceptance. Something else. It's in everything, and so you'll get to that point once you get through. It. Thank you so much. Moving on to the next question, what's 1 habit you believe has been pivotal to your success in the legal field and I suppose in the political field as well? I think there's two things. One is the fact that your attention to detail. You have to have attention to detail as a lawyer. Now, whether you learn that at law school or college or law or wherever you go in your firm or whatever, that attention detail is so important in politics. If you mess up attention to detail, you make a wrong comment, wrong figures, the opposition's going to slam you or the public will slam you, and good for them doing that. But you know, if you want to embarrass yourself, make that mistake, right? So attention to detail is important. The other thing, which I think is quite important, is that you've got to remember that the law doesn't work in a vacuum. We have a lot of black letter lawyers who say, oh, you got to do what's on the page. And I don't quite agree with that in most cases because, you know, when the laws are put through parliament, when they're interpreted by the judiciary, they look at the bigger picture. You may find when you have certain amount of advocacy before a a judge, especially in criminal matters, they're looking at the evidence that is right in front of them. But nearly every area of law you're working in a bigger picture. You know, in the world of what's going on and particularly when you're dealing with legislation, politicians or the push through legislation that has an impact on the wider world and they've written it for a real reason. They'll have an impact on the world, and often you'll see that in a second reading speeches, but that needs to. It's very important to keep in mind that whatever you're doing, it's not in a vacuum. You have to realize what the impact they have in the rest of the to everything else around you and the community. Well, those are two. Really great tips and I think it's important to acknowledge that as well. I think a lot of people at times when they're going through law school, they can certainly view it in a way which is supposed to be very legalistic and very black letter. And I think these greater policy considerations and sort of the impact on society and looking at something like second reading speech, I think it's very helpful for being for judges, being able to implement the law in the way it was intended and the way that is in in the context. Of the greatest society. Well, certainly when I was doing my PHDI had to review out hundreds of pieces of legislation. And one of the keys to really understanding was looking at that second reading speech and then obviously how it's been interpreted by the judiciary. But, you know, this idea of a black letter judge or a black letter lawyer, it's true to a point. And yeah. And I think that if it's been done a certain way and there's the interpretation, which has been clear when the attorney general, whoever it is who's put it through, has said that that's how it should be followed. But if you're looking at legislation, it must reflect the modernizing society. And so it may have been come into, into into enacted 20 or 30 years ago, but you've got to look at how it is today. And we've seen those issues with the sentencing, for example, especially with child sexual assault and other things like that. So you know, you need to balance that. You know what it actually needs. It needs to basically reflect your society, and the expectation of your society has to be as they say, you know, has to be in such justice, has to be seen and done. And that's what you got to do when you're interpreting Law I. Think Yeah, yeah. Well, so I was moving on to a little bit of a life topic. Can you name a book or a movie that's been significant to you and what do you recommend to? OK, so this was a very hard question when you suggested it to me because I've read that many books and if you look around here, you'll see a lot of books in my office. So you can't see that. But there are if anyone from any of your listeners come on to come and visit anytime. I'm always open to a visit, but I have hundreds of books at home are hundreds of books in the elected office, but I got it down to five. OK And they're not necessarily legal books. OK. So firstly, John Steinbeck's The Great of Wrath, right? Great book, great about Labour values and and and fighting for the underclass. You know, in the United States during the Depression, George Orwell, now everyone goes, they all know 984 and Animal Farm. And then, you know, it's all popular. Yeah, it's great, great books. But my favorite book was Homage to Catalonia and it's when he goes across as a journalist to fight against fascism right in Spain wasn't popular at the time. Big divisions in Europe, whether you should support what was going on with Franco and that and but he decided he put his neck on the line and go and fight fascism and he was quite effective. And the thing was that he ended up being on the on the blacklist for the fascists and the Nazis. So that's quite a quite a roll of honour I think. But Stalin also hated him as well. So he was on the blacklist for the communists as well. So here's this going between both. And I think as a Social Democrat, that's probably quite a good thing in those days, not today so much, but in those days because it showed that, you know, he was a true Democrat and he believed in what he was doing and that was to try and create democracy and freedom for the people of Spain. So that's a great story and talks about his time there. In Spain, there's a book written by a woman called Susanna Short. It's about her father called Lori Short, and it's called A political life. And it's a, he was a trade unionist in the 1950s and 60s in Sydney on the dockyards. And that's a really good. That was quite an inspiration. And in my office, you'll see there's a picture of Lori Short up here that he'd sign and give it my own comment to him. And I used to go and talk to Lori quite a lot. Russo's the social contract. I base a lot of my PhD on that and that was a really great, it's a great read and it talks about the relationship between the people and the government and that social contract which is so important. And you know, it was written, you know, a couple, 100 years ago now, but it's still relevant today. And finally, John Stewart Mills on Liberty. You know the right to the individual. Now I'm a trade unionist. I believe in trade unionism, but I also believe the rise in individual to express who they want to be and achieve what they want to achieve. And so I think Mills book is quite good. So there's my top five well. Thanks so much. Thank you so much for that. And I suppose for students aspiring to make an impact in the world, what's perhaps a a skill or a quality? I don't know if you can give a, perhaps a generic. One or. Do you believe it's most important for them to develop? I think perseverance, you're going to have a lot of challenges no matter who you are and what your background is. Life is not easy, especially in your late teens and your 20s. When you're studying, when you're not necessarily having an income, you're trying to find your way in the world and law school is challenging and it's meant to be. I don't believe anybody who says they think law school's easy. There are certain subjects which are easier and we always know those ones and try and do them. But there's a lot of challenges which you need to get through and especially when you finish the school and then you need to go on to perhaps find into practice. So perseverance. I also one thing I always tell people listen to the advice of a person that knows what they're talking about. Everybody wants to give you advice on things in their opinions and half the time they have no idea what they're talking about. Look at the person and say, OK, does that person successful? Is that person successful in the area which I'm needing to get this advice from? If they are, then listen to them. If they're not, don't, right. And so that I think that's key. And you know, I think also finally the thing that you really need to develop is to be able to relate to people, to develop an empathy with people. And I think that's quite important and that will do well not in law school but also in legal career or any other career which you go to. That empathy is extremely important. I. Suppose a soft skill like empathy is something that is perhaps a bit overlooked. It is people. There's some people who just have no empathy. And I see in law. In in law, yeah. Where once again, where you just think, oh, it's living in a vacuum, you know, you're looking like this, But also outside, you know, you, you don't have to, you know, have to be a bleeding heart. And I'm no bleeding heart, but you've got to have empathy. Have people who think, well, you know they're going it tough, You got to try and understand it and you know you. And if you have an understanding of where people are coming from, you'll be a better lawyer. You'll be a better person in my opinion. Yeah. Well, thanks so much for that. And I suppose we'll go on to our third last question. Did you always envision yourself practicing in the field? You do. And if not, what did you think you'd do that's when you were? I think I kind of did, You know, I was kind of interested in politics. I was over no political party. I was kind of interested in the law, but I really wasn't sure because I went to school. No one went to university much and the only experience you had with law a lot of the time from students was if they're getting arrested or something like that. To be honest, they're having problems. So a lot of them became Queensland police officers to grab Queensland it it was so, but in a way I did because I wanted to make a difference. I didn't want to have a job that just was just another job. I wanted to do something that actually made a difference and would be remembered, but also I could think of make the world a better place. I wanted to be that since I was a teenager and then as I got more experience working, you know in different jobs in that I wanted to protect the marginalized. And I think that human rights and and protecting those the most vulnerable has always been was part of me. I certainly wasn't brought up that way by the fan there, anything like that. It was just how I became and I and I I grew up, I think. And of course I came from a modest background. I knew what it was like to struggle. And so I saw people struggling and who I didn't think should be struggling. And especially in Australia, a place like Australia, that there needs to be safety Nets. So there needs to be, you know, that that help for people that support now not at not, you know, throwing money away, but helping people, you know, making sure they can build their lives. And because, you know, people go through all kinds of challenges and so they should be, that should be understood and the government and and each other as a community were there to help each other. And so I think, I think that the law was very much the way I practiced that right as that became the foundations to help me get there and achieve that aim of helping people. Yeah, yeah. I suppose this idea of sort of equality of opportunity for people, especially in people that perhaps are marginalized or in sort of tougher situation, just really I think important to see that and and to try and strive towards those. Yeah, and you can do that in the law and still make lots of money, right? You don't. You can still be a corporate litigator and or a a merchant or a banking lawyer and that and still do good things and work with people. I mean you know banks need lawyers. You know big companies need lawyers. They they do OK and there's nothing wrong. If you love that area law, go and do it. Knock yourself out. It's fantastic. But keep in mind that you shouldn't be exploiting people and that you know you're making a decent income, so why not use some of that to help people, All right. And give it back. And and even if it's just your time and you and I see that time and time again, you'll go to down to Vinny's, to down to to Darlinghurst or Woolamaloo. And that where they have the the mobile food van and the homeless. And you'll have the people on there who are partners in big firms who are making big money. But they'll stay all night and they'll help people anyway they can. And you don't just see it because, oh, they're doing it tick a box. They do it because they believe in it. And you see that when you go overseas in aid programs and if you have that opportunity, you give back and you help those who are the most vulnerable. But also there are people you know once you get there who need a hand up at law school or support or something, you help each other. You know, I never thought I would go and, you know, do a PhD in London or, you know, be an addition. I was in or I'd be so successful as a lawyer. I know what I wanted to be. But it was those people who had been just like me 20-30 years before, who went on to become judges or partners or silks, who turned around and said I'll give you a hand and give you advice and there's plenty of those people who will do that for you in a legal profession. Well, thanks so. Much. And I suppose on the topic of advice, is there a greatest piece of advice you've ever, Yep, seen? And who gave it to you? What was the content? It's a piece of advice which I know my staff, I say to ad nauseam, especially those who are legally trained. And I noticed I see Caitlin from, who works from officers, smiling at me. It's there's two types of lawyers in the world. And this is the advice I got from a guy called Conrad Staff who has retired as a judge now. But he was a partner in his firm. And I did a lot of work for the AWU. And I went through obviously law school and I got advice from him. And when I finished at law school, I had to go and spend some time with him because he was a supervising partner. And the first piece of advice he gave me is there's two types of lawyers in the world. One you'll go to and they will and you'll say what your problem is and they will tell you why you can't do something. They'll pay all of the problems are and why it can't be achieved. And the second type will listen to your problem and say, OK, So what do you want to achieve? And they'll listen to you and they'll go, right. I will find the legal way of doing it be the second type of lawyer, not the first. There's too many of the first types of lawyers and I see I've seen them all throughout my careers and they're the people you want don't want to spend because it's it's the easy cop out. You can't do it. Legislation says this, that look at it and be creative because the law is creative. A good argument. A good, a good a good draft paper. A good advocacy before a judge or whoever really works and you that's how the law progresses. So look at your client's problem and say, OK, what can I do to make their life better? What can I do? How can I move it? Don't break the law. You don't need to break the law. There's always a way around around it and and the law if you use your mind the right way and then use the argument. And the second piece is that it was another very good piece of advice. When I was trying to become a member of Parliament I had to go through pre selection and it was a really big fight because it's people there's only there's only you know less than 100 of us in the parliament in the lower house. So it's a big fight everyone wants to be here right. And it was pretty rough, pretty rough in your family. And it was a a, a senator Deb O'Neill, who said to me, look, make a decision, how bad do you want this? If you want it bad enough, keep going no matter what happens, right? And you'll get there. And it was a great piece of advice because I put my head down. I did that and here I am today, you know, Yeah, yeah. It's more than just hunger because everyone is hungry for it. But you've got to decide, OK, am I prepared, you know, to to work those extra hours to all that extra time to make to dawn up all those houses, to talk to all those people, to do whatever I have to do to get this done. And it doesn't. And also not knowing you may, you may not win the end, but you give it your everything, right? And and make sure you try and win it. Yeah, Well, thank you so much for that. And that's that's some brilliant advice. Finally, the the final question that we have is 1 from our listeners. This one's from Ethan Sav from UNSW. There tends to be a commonly accepted view that lawyers make good politicians. As a person who studied postgraduate law, how much of the motivation behind studying law can you attribute to your political ambitions? And can you make a comment more generally on lawyers and? Perhaps politicians. Well, the thing about politics, it's a great deal of risk involved, OK? You may get in, you may not, you know, you may have an outstanding political career and then bang, it'll end tomorrow because of something that happened or something that someone said or some mistake you made with. You may not realize you're making it. And I I think to paraphrase what Keating said, that all great political careers end in failure or catastrophe or something like that, you know, you're not Keating. You would have said something like that. And he's pretty right. Apart from Bob Carr, I don't know any other politician who didn't who really went out on their own, their their own admissions. And most there's a scandal or there's I CAC or there's or or something blows up at home and you just got to finish it. All right, Well, you just get too old because I've got to give up. So there's all different reasons. So I think so politics is a risk. The law not only trains you on, you know, legislation and other things I've already talked about, but also gives you a bit of a a professional safety ad as well. I've known lawyers and have a good friend who was in the upper house and he's left politics. He's gone back to the bar. You can go and do that. Not always easy, but it it gives you that professional take your neck. And also if you don't get into politics, if you don't get elected or you don't win your pre selection, it's always still there. And that's part of the reason you know you've got that trade you could say to keep going and it doesn't mean that you can't stop you doing politics, but you've got it there. So I think that that foundation is good. It teaches you the law how to craft an argument and that's good. And it it if you, if you're a good lawyer, if you're a good law student, you've got that argument. You've got those opinions that are always backed up with evidence. You'll do well. You'll do well because you'll get in the chamber or you'll, you'll get anywhere and they'll be having a go at you. And they've usually got a tense stress and stuff like that. And you'll just flick it past because you're you, you've got your foundation, your training, one of the key things. Don't give an opinion unless you can back it up. Never give it. I remember I taught this when I was teaching contract lure at Kings. Never give me an argument or a reason that's not hasn't been reasoned and you can't back it up because too many people in the world go, oh I read that in the telly so I'll say it or some guy at the pub said this no, no, you back it up and if you can't be quiet, right. So I think that's key. And I think finally that certainly in government all policy should be based on evidence and objective and pragmatic. OK, it's all good and fine to say, oh, I want to achieve this. Well, OK, you want to achieve that. How do we make it happen? Right. Can, is there evidence to make it happen? Like, can we support what we're saying and what impact we'll have? And so that's extremely important and that is only works well in Parliament and in policy for government, but also any probably any job you have or any argument also especially in law and being a law. Student I imagine a lot of law students are probably a little bit heartbreaking to hear that because they hate the AGLC. Reference. But I do understand, yeah, yeah, it's important. Though to back these things up and especially to get yeah, to do well in your courses and to have these opinions and. Arguments but. Yeah. Well, thanks so much for sitting down with me and talking to me today. That's about all we have time for. So thank you very much and. Yeah, All the best. Thank you. Oliver goes great. Thank you.