Transcript
Hello and welcome to the
Australian Law Student Podcast.
I'm your host Oliver Hammond and
welcome to our first episode for
2024.
In today's episode we're
honoured to have with this NSW
State Labour MP, Doctor Hugh
McDermott.
Now before I introduce Doctor
McDermott, just a quick
disclaimer.
The Australian Law Student
Podcast is by no means
politically affiliated and
strives for political
neutrality, engaging with
politicians from all parties to
explore diverse legal
perspectives.
Later on in the year we will
continue to interview
politicians from all areas and
we believe it is up to you as
listeners to form your own
beliefs and opinions on the
areas of law discussed.
Now back to the introduction.
Before entering NSW Parliament
in 2015 for the relatively new
electorate of Prospect Dr.,
McDermott graduated with a PhD
in laws from King's College
London and a postgraduate law
degree from both the University
of Technology Sydney and the
University of Sydney.
He spent his prior years as an
Australian Workers Union lawyer
and barrister, along with an
array of other jobs.
He's now the secretary to the
NSW Attorney General and he
brings a wealth of experience to
this episode.
So without a further ado, enjoy
the show.
Thank you for joining me today
on the Australian Law Student
Podcast.
How are you?
Very good, Oliver.
Thank you very much for inviting
me.
This morning.
Thank you.
I suppose we'll dive straight
into our first question.
Your path to becoming a
politician transitioning from a
law student and barrister is far
from traditional.
Your diverse experiences range
from working as a jackaroo in
central QLD and a barman at the
Whitsundays deserving the
Australian.
The best part of my career, by
the way, Definitely working
behind a bar at the Whitsundays.
I am Hamilton Island.
It was so, yes.
Yeah.
Very busy nights.
Yeah, very good.
Well, it's.
Certainly one of the most
beautiful locations, so yeah.
So from the Australian Defence
Force and the Australian Workers
Union, your journey challenges a
more commonly held idea that you
need to have a straightforward
career path to learn.
In high school, law school, law
firm, you know that sort of
three-step method.
Can you share what sparked your
interest in politics and you
give some insight into your
career journey?
Yeah, sure, certainly.
Yeah.
It wasn't the traditional, I
mean it's not so much
traditional anymore.
I mean there was the time when
you'd go to to private school
and you go into college at City
University and then you go on
there into the bar or to daddy's
law firm.
Very different now, very
different Now there is still
that of course and there's
nothing wrong with that.
You know, you're lucky.
But a lot of people from, you
know, throughout NSW from
different backgrounds now are
are practicing lawyers and do
very, very well on the
judiciary, on the benches,
etcetera.
I came from quite a modest
background.
I didn't particularly like
school.
It was OK.
I enjoyed certain subjects like
English and history.
But you know, and I didn't go to
a school where people went to
university.
I don't think anybody from my
year 12 went to university that
went to TAFE, went to trades,
went to the army, but very few
went to university.
I can't imagine, I can't
actually think of anybody who
did.
And of course, as like you said,
I worked as a jackaroo in
central QLD.
I worked behind a bar up in the
Whitsundays, moved around and it
was having and then time in the
military.
But it was this exposure to low
paid jobs, often exploited by
employers, not only of myself
but seeing others exploited and
pushed me more and more towards
labour politics, towards trade
unionism.
And there are many workers today
that you know, the workforce has
changed.
They don't necessarily need
trade unions.
They did.
They have their own, their own
self, they have their own power
base.
But a lot of blue collar
workers, a lot of refugees, a
lot of people have come into
this community over the many
years do need trade unions.
So that's what pushed me towards
that and of course that then led
me towards the law as well,
because the law is is that one
thing in our society that can
really help working people, help
those who are vulnerable.
And I guess that's what led me
to that in regards to politics.
I end up going down and got a
bit of a scholarship to just
study at the University of New
England.
And I went down there and I was
a student.
Wasn't involved in politics,
wasn't involved in the law and
the tenement square massacre
happened in China other side of
the world you could say.
But I will sat watching it as a
19 year old, 20 year old student
watching these students standing
up to tell their own regime and
being killed for doing it.
And I had a lot of Chinese
friends who were postgrad
students over from China at the
university.
And I went up to see the
president of the SRC and I said
look, I'd like to raise money,
I'd like to do something to help
these students here and they've
got a family back there.
And that that gentleman was a, I
would say, a political
extremist.
It's any way you could describe
it, because he sat there,
explained to me why the
Tiananmen Square massacre was
justified and how it was for the
greater good.
And I walked out of that office
at 19 and thought, I don't know
what I have to do to get rid of
him.
But that person doesn't
represent me.
He certainly does represent
other students on this campus.
And I ran for student politics.
I won.
I got into the SRC.
I challenged the president and I
beat him at the election and
then that went on and that was
my beginning.
I wasn't in any political party.
I just wanted to do what I
thought was right and I thought
what represented the students on
campus with me.
And then we went to the next
election and I won everything
like I won the whole, the whole
SRC.
I did that for two years, but
that was my beginning in
politics.
I then moved down to Sydney in
the early 90s now and I was in
my early 20s and I'd met a man
called Terry Shane who some may
know but he was the first
attorney general in in Iran
government and he went on to
become a judge and other things.
He just recently retired and I
met him, didn't know much about
Labour politics and he said oh
you should come and think about
joining the Labour Party.
And I said, oh OK, I'll come
down and have a talk to you
anyway, the rest is history.
I joined up and got involved and
it all went from there.
Well, thanks so much for.
Sharing I suppose many students,
including those including our
listeners, are familiar with and
eager to make a positive impact
in the world and they see
politics as a way to achieve
this.
In your role as Parliamentary
Secretary to the Attorney
General of NSW, how has your
legal background being
beneficial and additionally,
what motivated you?
I suppose you spoke a little bit
about your motivations to join
the Labour Party in relation to
the perhaps miss the sort of
mistreatment of workers
throughout your time.
Is that something that you
still?
See today as a.
As a as a big problem in in NSW
and sort of what things do you
think that you do?
To address those issues, yes.
OK, the the law is very
important for any profession, I
think, and I think it's one of
the few degrees that you should
do no matter what you want to be
in life.
It's it.
It trains you in, you know,
attention to detail, crafting an
argument based on reason and
evidence.
And we don't have enough of that
in politics.
You know, Donald Trump's the
prime example.
You know, he just makes up the
facts as he goes along and and
you see other politicians do
that.
It's not just him, but he's
probably the most well known
example at the moment.
But the law school you know if
you can't give a a reasoned
argument backed up with evidence
in your essays or you know in
your tutorials and that they
fail.
So you need to do it well and
the better you can do that
understanding of doing that the
better you also understand
legislation because you need to
you understand case law and you
know and what the role of the of
the different arms of government
is and you'll learn that even
even the first couple of years
of law school, not that I don't
post grad.
So I think that's important.
So it's a very good foundation
for politics.
And unlike the myths, there's
not that many lawyers in
politics because OK, politicians
are paid OK.
But if compared to, say, a
partner in a big law firm or a
silk, you know, and that they
make a lot more money.
And in fact, when I came into
politics, I made a clear
decision with my family that I
was going to do this because we
knew my my salary would drop,
right.
I wouldn't be earning the money,
I'd be be at the bar and so, but
that was a conscious decision
because I wanted to make a
difference, because this is
where I that led me, very much
so in regards to exploitation of
workers, yes, it still happens.
We still have an issue with
modern slavery and things like
that.
And I've been very involved with
that legislation which we put
through in New South Wales.
We're the only country now which
or the only state that has a
modern slavery commissioner.
They started off having one in
the UK and he worked fairly well
and then she.
But you know it's been really
cut down by the current Tory
government over there.
We we made sure that eventually
it took many years to get
legislation through in New South
Wales, that we have a modern
slavery commissioner.
We see exploitation particularly
of people who have been
trafficked.
We see exploitation of, you
know, menial jobs, blue collar
type jobs still to this day in
different areas like
construction and that, but also
in the laundries and all
different type of areas like
that.
So that's still an issue and it
was, you know my experience with
all that that that led me along
those lines to being a Social
Democrat because that's I see
myself as a moderate middle
ground.
I think that my experience when
I was in the SRC was dealing
with extremists is, you know,
and I use that word, I don't use
it lightly because, you know,
there are those extremists and
we've see them just recently
with those that group that came
up from Melbourne.
We're marching with masks on,
you know, around Australia and
day from the far right, you
know, the far right, far left,
where they're coming from.
You know, there's no real place
for them in Australia, I don't
think.
And there is a place for
dialogue, there's a place for
debate, etcetera, but not for
extremism like that.
And I think that's what
gravitated me towards the Labour
Party because it was very much a
Social Democratic and social
justice point of view and
everything I do.
In fact, that's social justice
And you know, I'm a Catholic so
that you get taught if you're a
Catholic or Catholic.
Social justice, Fortunately, all
Catholics get involved in that.
But those, the ones who do, I
mean, I think it's quite
important as a foundation.
And so you spoke a little bit
about that, a little bit there
about the UK And so your journey
obviously began, university
journey began at the University
of New England and then the
University of Sydney, but you
also spent some time over at the
King's College over in London.
How did How was that?
Experience.
So my my journey was I started
doing UNE and I did politics and
economic history up there.
I came down to Sydney.
I hadn't quite finished that
degree.
I was looking for a job because
I was working all the way
through.
And then I got I was a trade
union official and I did quite
well as trade union official and
it was suggested I go to law
school.
I went to UTS, did quite well
and then I went on to a Masters
at Sydney.
And then I got a number of
scholarships and went across to
King's College in London and did
a PhD in law.
Looking at the impact that
globalization had on law reform
in Australia, especially during
the Hawk Keating years.
When we opened the economy, we
changed a lot of things.
We got rid of the white
Australia policy well and truly
and all the old immigration
policies of a racist basically
and embraced Asia, especially on
the Keating.
So that that that gave me a
massive experience and I really
encourage anybody who can go and
study for a time overseas.
When I was at UTS, we went over
to to Beijing for a period of
time, did a subject there.
I mean I know that pretty much
all those schools have such
exchanges.
If you can do it, do it.
It's amazing experience.
But if you can go into a post,
go at Masters or something else
overseas, no matter where it is,
it's it's a great experience.
Thank you for listening to the
Australian Law Student Podcast.
The following segment is
questions from the Bench.
Here we ask our guests a set
series of questions designed for
you to get to know them better
and to get the key advice to
help you on your journey.
Each week we also take a
question from you, our audience,
Head over to our socials and
send us a message to get your
question answered.
Thanks for listening.
OK, these questions.
We sort of used to try and make
our guests a bit more personable
and let our listeners.
Connect to you a.
Bit more on.
Personal level.
So I'll start for the first one.
What was your favorite subject
in law?
School Okay my favorite subjects
in law school with international
economic law and national trade
law.
Haven't used them a great deal,
but there were great subjects
and there was a lot of moots and
stuff involved in those
subjects.
So you had to really craft your
argument and your advocacy.
But I should talk about the one
I hated the most, right, which
was contract law.
I hated contract law and I
failed it first year, right.
So OK, I've got honours in my
degrees, I've got a PhD in law,
one of the top law schools in
the world, but I failed contract
law and I could not believe it.
I hated this subject with a
passion.
And so I remember, and one of
the things at the time that the
classes, I was working full
time, so I couldn't make it to
all the chutes.
So they marked me down for that.
And so I was so angry.
As you imagine, next year came
back HD, right?
There you go.
Creamed it right.
I made sure I did that and I had
a different teacher the second
time.
And I complain and complain and
complain to all throughout the
semester.
And then I go to Kings PhD you
know can't wait.
The supervisors, the professors
come to me and says we're going
to have you teach law This year
I went wonderful well, probably
about five or six classes.
Oh wonderful.
Says I want you to teach
contract law.
So I taught contract law from I
went from hating it to actually
really liking it now but well
back then.
But it was it was the thing And
my professor at UTS rang me up
when he she found out that I was
teaching contract law and just
paid out on me.
Right.
So anyway, so that's the story
about myself.
That's.
A great story, I suppose, about
contracts.
And I think, I think a lot of
students are at that point right
now where they're doing
contracts.
I know you're in Southwest right
now in the first three
contracts.
So, yeah, yeah, certainly.
It permeates everything in the
law, and you might be hiding it
now.
As you progress through, no
matter what you actually area
you really enjoy.
You'll find that the contracts
permeate everything you do and
that offer acceptance.
Something else.
It's in everything, and so
you'll get to that point once
you get through.
It.
Thank you so much.
Moving on to the next question,
what's 1 habit you believe has
been pivotal to your success in
the legal field and I suppose in
the political field as well?
I think there's two things.
One is the fact that your
attention to detail.
You have to have attention to
detail as a lawyer.
Now, whether you learn that at
law school or college or law or
wherever you go in your firm or
whatever, that attention detail
is so important in politics.
If you mess up attention to
detail, you make a wrong
comment, wrong figures, the
opposition's going to slam you
or the public will slam you, and
good for them doing that.
But you know, if you want to
embarrass yourself, make that
mistake, right?
So attention to detail is
important.
The other thing, which I think
is quite important, is that
you've got to remember that the
law doesn't work in a vacuum.
We have a lot of black letter
lawyers who say, oh, you got to
do what's on the page.
And I don't quite agree with
that in most cases because, you
know, when the laws are put
through parliament, when they're
interpreted by the judiciary,
they look at the bigger picture.
You may find when you have
certain amount of advocacy
before a a judge, especially in
criminal matters, they're
looking at the evidence that is
right in front of them.
But nearly every area of law
you're working in a bigger
picture.
You know, in the world of what's
going on and particularly when
you're dealing with legislation,
politicians or the push through
legislation that has an impact
on the wider world and they've
written it for a real reason.
They'll have an impact on the
world, and often you'll see that
in a second reading speeches,
but that needs to.
It's very important to keep in
mind that whatever you're doing,
it's not in a vacuum.
You have to realize what the
impact they have in the rest of
the to everything else around
you and the community.
Well, those are two.
Really great tips and I think
it's important to acknowledge
that as well.
I think a lot of people at times
when they're going through law
school, they can certainly view
it in a way which is supposed to
be very legalistic and very
black letter.
And I think these greater policy
considerations and sort of the
impact on society and looking at
something like second reading
speech, I think it's very
helpful for being for judges,
being able to implement the law
in the way it was intended and
the way that is in in the
context.
Of the greatest society.
Well, certainly when I was doing
my PHDI had to review out
hundreds of pieces of
legislation.
And one of the keys to really
understanding was looking at
that second reading speech and
then obviously how it's been
interpreted by the judiciary.
But, you know, this idea of a
black letter judge or a black
letter lawyer, it's true to a
point.
And yeah.
And I think that if it's been
done a certain way and there's
the interpretation, which has
been clear when the attorney
general, whoever it is who's put
it through, has said that that's
how it should be followed.
But if you're looking at
legislation, it must reflect the
modernizing society.
And so it may have been come
into, into into enacted 20 or 30
years ago, but you've got to
look at how it is today.
And we've seen those issues with
the sentencing, for example,
especially with child sexual
assault and other things like
that.
So you know, you need to balance
that.
You know what it actually needs.
It needs to basically reflect
your society, and the
expectation of your society has
to be as they say, you know, has
to be in such justice, has to be
seen and done.
And that's what you got to do
when you're interpreting Law I.
Think Yeah, yeah.
Well, so I was moving on to a
little bit of a life topic.
Can you name a book or a movie
that's been significant to you
and what do you recommend to?
OK, so this was a very hard
question when you suggested it
to me because I've read that
many books and if you look
around here, you'll see a lot of
books in my office.
So you can't see that.
But there are if anyone from any
of your listeners come on to
come and visit anytime.
I'm always open to a visit, but
I have hundreds of books at home
are hundreds of books in the
elected office, but I got it
down to five.
OK And they're not necessarily
legal books.
OK.
So firstly, John Steinbeck's The
Great of Wrath, right?
Great book, great about Labour
values and and and fighting for
the underclass.
You know, in the United States
during the Depression, George
Orwell, now everyone goes, they
all know 984 and Animal Farm.
And then, you know, it's all
popular.
Yeah, it's great, great books.
But my favorite book was Homage
to Catalonia and it's when he
goes across as a journalist to
fight against fascism right in
Spain wasn't popular at the
time.
Big divisions in Europe, whether
you should support what was
going on with Franco and that
and but he decided he put his
neck on the line and go and
fight fascism and he was quite
effective.
And the thing was that he ended
up being on the on the blacklist
for the fascists and the Nazis.
So that's quite a quite a roll
of honour I think.
But Stalin also hated him as
well.
So he was on the blacklist for
the communists as well.
So here's this going between
both.
And I think as a Social
Democrat, that's probably quite
a good thing in those days, not
today so much, but in those days
because it showed that, you
know, he was a true Democrat and
he believed in what he was doing
and that was to try and create
democracy and freedom for the
people of Spain.
So that's a great story and
talks about his time there.
In Spain, there's a book written
by a woman called Susanna Short.
It's about her father called
Lori Short, and it's called A
political life.
And it's a, he was a trade
unionist in the 1950s and 60s in
Sydney on the dockyards.
And that's a really good.
That was quite an inspiration.
And in my office, you'll see
there's a picture of Lori Short
up here that he'd sign and give
it my own comment to him.
And I used to go and talk to
Lori quite a lot.
Russo's the social contract.
I base a lot of my PhD on that
and that was a really great,
it's a great read and it talks
about the relationship between
the people and the government
and that social contract which
is so important.
And you know, it was written,
you know, a couple, 100 years
ago now, but it's still relevant
today.
And finally, John Stewart Mills
on Liberty.
You know the right to the
individual.
Now I'm a trade unionist.
I believe in trade unionism, but
I also believe the rise in
individual to express who they
want to be and achieve what they
want to achieve.
And so I think Mills book is
quite good.
So there's my top five well.
Thanks so much.
Thank you so much for that.
And I suppose for students
aspiring to make an impact in
the world, what's perhaps a a
skill or a quality?
I don't know if you can give a,
perhaps a generic.
One or.
Do you believe it's most
important for them to develop?
I think perseverance, you're
going to have a lot of
challenges no matter who you are
and what your background is.
Life is not easy, especially in
your late teens and your 20s.
When you're studying, when
you're not necessarily having an
income, you're trying to find
your way in the world and law
school is challenging and it's
meant to be.
I don't believe anybody who says
they think law school's easy.
There are certain subjects which
are easier and we always know
those ones and try and do them.
But there's a lot of challenges
which you need to get through
and especially when you finish
the school and then you need to
go on to perhaps find into
practice.
So perseverance.
I also one thing I always tell
people listen to the advice of a
person that knows what they're
talking about.
Everybody wants to give you
advice on things in their
opinions and half the time they
have no idea what they're
talking about.
Look at the person and say, OK,
does that person successful?
Is that person successful in the
area which I'm needing to get
this advice from?
If they are, then listen to
them.
If they're not, don't, right.
And so that I think that's key.
And you know, I think also
finally the thing that you
really need to develop is to be
able to relate to people, to
develop an empathy with people.
And I think that's quite
important and that will do well
not in law school but also in
legal career or any other career
which you go to.
That empathy is extremely
important.
I.
Suppose a soft skill like
empathy is something that is
perhaps a bit overlooked.
It is people.
There's some people who just
have no empathy.
And I see in law.
In in law, yeah.
Where once again, where you just
think, oh, it's living in a
vacuum, you know, you're looking
like this, But also outside, you
know, you, you don't have to,
you know, have to be a bleeding
heart.
And I'm no bleeding heart, but
you've got to have empathy.
Have people who think, well, you
know they're going it tough, You
got to try and understand it and
you know you.
And if you have an understanding
of where people are coming from,
you'll be a better lawyer.
You'll be a better person in my
opinion.
Yeah.
Well, thanks so much for that.
And I suppose we'll go on to our
third last question.
Did you always envision yourself
practicing in the field?
You do.
And if not, what did you think
you'd do that's when you were?
I think I kind of did, You know,
I was kind of interested in
politics.
I was over no political party.
I was kind of interested in the
law, but I really wasn't sure
because I went to school.
No one went to university much
and the only experience you had
with law a lot of the time from
students was if they're getting
arrested or something like that.
To be honest, they're having
problems.
So a lot of them became
Queensland police officers to
grab Queensland it it was so,
but in a way I did because I
wanted to make a difference.
I didn't want to have a job that
just was just another job.
I wanted to do something that
actually made a difference and
would be remembered, but also I
could think of make the world a
better place.
I wanted to be that since I was
a teenager and then as I got
more experience working, you
know in different jobs in that I
wanted to protect the
marginalized.
And I think that human rights
and and protecting those the
most vulnerable has always been
was part of me.
I certainly wasn't brought up
that way by the fan there,
anything like that.
It was just how I became and I
and I I grew up, I think.
And of course I came from a
modest background.
I knew what it was like to
struggle.
And so I saw people struggling
and who I didn't think should be
struggling.
And especially in Australia, a
place like Australia, that there
needs to be safety Nets.
So there needs to be, you know,
that that help for people that
support now not at not, you
know, throwing money away, but
helping people, you know, making
sure they can build their lives.
And because, you know, people go
through all kinds of challenges
and so they should be, that
should be understood and the
government and and each other as
a community were there to help
each other.
And so I think, I think that the
law was very much the way I
practiced that right as that
became the foundations to help
me get there and achieve that
aim of helping people.
Yeah, yeah.
I suppose this idea of sort of
equality of opportunity for
people, especially in people
that perhaps are marginalized or
in sort of tougher situation,
just really I think important to
see that and and to try and
strive towards those.
Yeah, and you can do that in the
law and still make lots of
money, right?
You don't.
You can still be a corporate
litigator and or a a merchant or
a banking lawyer and that and
still do good things and work
with people.
I mean you know banks need
lawyers.
You know big companies need
lawyers.
They they do OK and there's
nothing wrong.
If you love that area law, go
and do it.
Knock yourself out.
It's fantastic.
But keep in mind that you
shouldn't be exploiting people
and that you know you're making
a decent income, so why not use
some of that to help people, All
right.
And give it back.
And and even if it's just your
time and you and I see that time
and time again, you'll go to
down to Vinny's, to down to to
Darlinghurst or Woolamaloo.
And that where they have the the
mobile food van and the
homeless.
And you'll have the people on
there who are partners in big
firms who are making big money.
But they'll stay all night and
they'll help people anyway they
can.
And you don't just see it
because, oh, they're doing it
tick a box.
They do it because they believe
in it.
And you see that when you go
overseas in aid programs and if
you have that opportunity, you
give back and you help those who
are the most vulnerable.
But also there are people you
know once you get there who need
a hand up at law school or
support or something, you help
each other.
You know, I never thought I
would go and, you know, do a PhD
in London or, you know, be an
addition.
I was in or I'd be so successful
as a lawyer.
I know what I wanted to be.
But it was those people who had
been just like me 20-30 years
before, who went on to become
judges or partners or silks, who
turned around and said I'll give
you a hand and give you advice
and there's plenty of those
people who will do that for you
in a legal profession.
Well, thanks so.
Much.
And I suppose on the topic of
advice, is there a greatest
piece of advice you've ever,
Yep, seen?
And who gave it to you?
What was the content?
It's a piece of advice which I
know my staff, I say to ad
nauseam, especially those who
are legally trained.
And I noticed I see Caitlin
from, who works from officers,
smiling at me.
It's there's two types of
lawyers in the world.
And this is the advice I got
from a guy called Conrad Staff
who has retired as a judge now.
But he was a partner in his
firm.
And I did a lot of work for the
AWU.
And I went through obviously law
school and I got advice from
him.
And when I finished at law
school, I had to go and spend
some time with him because he
was a supervising partner.
And the first piece of advice he
gave me is there's two types of
lawyers in the world.
One you'll go to and they will
and you'll say what your problem
is and they will tell you why
you can't do something.
They'll pay all of the problems
are and why it can't be
achieved.
And the second type will listen
to your problem and say, OK, So
what do you want to achieve?
And they'll listen to you and
they'll go, right.
I will find the legal way of
doing it be the second type of
lawyer, not the first.
There's too many of the first
types of lawyers and I see I've
seen them all throughout my
careers and they're the people
you want don't want to spend
because it's it's the easy cop
out.
You can't do it.
Legislation says this, that look
at it and be creative because
the law is creative.
A good argument.
A good, a good a good draft
paper.
A good advocacy before a judge
or whoever really works and you
that's how the law progresses.
So look at your client's problem
and say, OK, what can I do to
make their life better?
What can I do?
How can I move it?
Don't break the law.
You don't need to break the law.
There's always a way around
around it and and the law if you
use your mind the right way and
then use the argument.
And the second piece is that it
was another very good piece of
advice.
When I was trying to become a
member of Parliament I had to go
through pre selection and it was
a really big fight because it's
people there's only there's only
you know less than 100 of us in
the parliament in the lower
house.
So it's a big fight everyone
wants to be here right.
And it was pretty rough, pretty
rough in your family.
And it was a a, a senator Deb
O'Neill, who said to me, look,
make a decision, how bad do you
want this?
If you want it bad enough, keep
going no matter what happens,
right?
And you'll get there.
And it was a great piece of
advice because I put my head
down.
I did that and here I am today,
you know, Yeah, yeah.
It's more than just hunger
because everyone is hungry for
it.
But you've got to decide, OK, am
I prepared, you know, to to work
those extra hours to all that
extra time to make to dawn up
all those houses, to talk to all
those people, to do whatever I
have to do to get this done.
And it doesn't.
And also not knowing you may,
you may not win the end, but you
give it your everything, right?
And and make sure you try and
win it.
Yeah, Well, thank you so much
for that.
And that's that's some brilliant
advice.
Finally, the the final question
that we have is 1 from our
listeners.
This one's from Ethan Sav from
UNSW.
There tends to be a commonly
accepted view that lawyers make
good politicians.
As a person who studied
postgraduate law, how much of
the motivation behind studying
law can you attribute to your
political ambitions?
And can you make a comment more
generally on lawyers and?
Perhaps politicians.
Well, the thing about politics,
it's a great deal of risk
involved, OK?
You may get in, you may not, you
know, you may have an
outstanding political career and
then bang, it'll end tomorrow
because of something that
happened or something that
someone said or some mistake you
made with.
You may not realize you're
making it.
And I I think to paraphrase what
Keating said, that all great
political careers end in failure
or catastrophe or something like
that, you know, you're not
Keating.
You would have said something
like that.
And he's pretty right.
Apart from Bob Carr, I don't
know any other politician who
didn't who really went out on
their own, their their own
admissions.
And most there's a scandal or
there's I CAC or there's or or
something blows up at home and
you just got to finish it.
All right, Well, you just get
too old because I've got to give
up.
So there's all different
reasons.
So I think so politics is a
risk.
The law not only trains you on,
you know, legislation and other
things I've already talked
about, but also gives you a bit
of a a professional safety ad as
well.
I've known lawyers and have a
good friend who was in the upper
house and he's left politics.
He's gone back to the bar.
You can go and do that.
Not always easy, but it it gives
you that professional take your
neck.
And also if you don't get into
politics, if you don't get
elected or you don't win your
pre selection, it's always still
there.
And that's part of the reason
you know you've got that trade
you could say to keep going and
it doesn't mean that you can't
stop you doing politics, but
you've got it there.
So I think that that foundation
is good.
It teaches you the law how to
craft an argument and that's
good.
And it it if you, if you're a
good lawyer, if you're a good
law student, you've got that
argument.
You've got those opinions that
are always backed up with
evidence.
You'll do well.
You'll do well because you'll
get in the chamber or you'll,
you'll get anywhere and they'll
be having a go at you.
And they've usually got a tense
stress and stuff like that.
And you'll just flick it past
because you're you, you've got
your foundation, your training,
one of the key things.
Don't give an opinion unless you
can back it up.
Never give it.
I remember I taught this when I
was teaching contract lure at
Kings.
Never give me an argument or a
reason that's not hasn't been
reasoned and you can't back it
up because too many people in
the world go, oh I read that in
the telly so I'll say it or some
guy at the pub said this no, no,
you back it up and if you can't
be quiet, right.
So I think that's key.
And I think finally that
certainly in government all
policy should be based on
evidence and objective and
pragmatic.
OK, it's all good and fine to
say, oh, I want to achieve this.
Well, OK, you want to achieve
that.
How do we make it happen?
Right.
Can, is there evidence to make
it happen?
Like, can we support what we're
saying and what impact we'll
have?
And so that's extremely
important and that is only works
well in Parliament and in policy
for government, but also any
probably any job you have or any
argument also especially in law
and being a law.
Student I imagine a lot of law
students are probably a little
bit heartbreaking to hear that
because they hate the AGLC.
Reference.
But I do understand, yeah, yeah,
it's important.
Though to back these things up
and especially to get yeah, to
do well in your courses and to
have these opinions and.
Arguments but.
Yeah.
Well, thanks so much for sitting
down with me and talking to me
today.
That's about all we have time
for.
So thank you very much and.
Yeah, All the best.
Thank you.
Oliver goes great.
Thank you.