Life as a Law Grad at One of Australia's Top Firms | Hall & Wilcox

Hello and welcome to the Australian Law Student Podcast. I'm your host Oliver Hammond, and on today's episode it was my pleasure to interview Hall and Wilcox. Graduate. Larise's is for season one of 2024. The Australian law student is proud to announce that. Hall and Wilcox have decided to support. Us in our journey. And in doing so, it was my pleasure to sit down in their lovely Sydney offices and find out what it's really like to be a law grad in one of Australia's top law firms. In this episode, I discussed with Larise her journey to becoming a grad, what law students can expect to encounter at graduate interviews, and how Hall and Wilcox's culture in particular was really important in her decision to work there. If you want tips and tricks to become a law graduate, you've come to the right place. And if you'd like to explore Hall and Wilcox's graduate and career opportunities, click the link in the description or head over to the ozlawstudent.com. Now, without further ado, sit back, relax and enjoy the podcast. Thank you, Laurice, for sitting down with me today. Thanks for having me, it's really nice to meet you. I'll start off with my first question. Laurice, you've. Been a law. Graduate for around about a year now. At Hall and Wilcox. How have you found the transition from law school to law firm and what was the process in applying and eventually landing a position at Hall and Wilcox like? So I think my transition from law school to law firm was a little bit different to most people in that I finished my degree midway through the year and I didn't start as a grad until February the following year. So in between that time I was working four to five days as a paralegal and I got really lucky. And I think the biggest challenge for people is moving from law school where it's really theory based, to getting those practical skills, whether it's billing matter, management, everything like that. So I was lucky that I had a bit of time to build those skills up. But in saying that, when you come to a law firm as a grad, they're not expecting you to be perfect. And those are all things that come with time and practice. In terms of getting a job at Holland Wilcox as part of the graduate program, the process is pretty similar to a lot of other law firms. So you start by applying, submitting your CV and a cover letter, really just talking about why you want to join the firm. Shortlisted candidates are then invited to a graduate breakfast where you can meet other the current grads as well as partners at the firm and really just get to know our people and ask questions. We then have two rounds of interviews. So your interviews will be with a member of people and culture and usually a partner at the firm. And while it is, you know you've got the general questions about why you want to come to the firm, talking about your experience and your resume. It's really, really conversational and it's all about us getting to know you and you also getting to know us as well. I think one thing with interviews is people really think I've got to be, you know, what the firm wants and I've got to be a right fit for the firm. But it's also about you finding a firm that suits you and what you're looking for as well. And I think that's something really important to keep in mind when you're doing the process. Yeah, but after the two rounds, then you hopefully get an offer and start as a grad. Yeah, and so. Would you say that the skills that you're developing as a as a lawyer have been adequately developed in law school? Or would you say that there is a a a new set of skills that you're developing? It's definitely a new set of skills. I think there's a lot of skills you take from uni, whether it's communication skills, working with other people, things like legal research are really, really helpful. But there's a lot of other things that you won't have done, and usually until you get to a law firm. So even just how to deal with clients, how to run your own matters, having that autonomy, things like billing as well, all things that you won't really get a chance to learn until you're in practice. And what was your reaction after you did your interviews? Did you walk out feeling like the interview did you went really well, you smashed it? Or were you perhaps a little bit more worried that, well, maybe something I said was was wrong? I think after the first one I was really worried, 'cause I find in an interview you do have to sell yourself and I find that really hard and really uncomfortable. But I walked away being like, this is the firm I wanna stay at. I really enjoyed the conversations I had with the people there. So I was just fingers crossed I got a second one. And I think by the time you get to the second interview, the questions are relatively similar. It's just a different set of people getting to know you. So I think I did a little bit better the second time around. That's good to do a. Bit more relaxed, yeah? And So what? What? You were able to tell for. Sort of Hall Milcox. 'S culture already from the first interview? What? What sort of questions were you asking in the interview? So things that I was asking were really focused around training programs, mentoring, everything to do with learning and development because that was something that was really important to me, particularly as I'm starting out in my career. Another thing I always asked was why did they choose to come to the firm, whoever was interviewing me? And if they'd been at the firm for a long time, what was the reason that they'd stayed at the firm for a long time? Because I know now that can be a little bit rare. And I think those answers really helped me to figure out why people liked the firm and what the culture was like, and maybe what my day-to-day experience would be. I think that's really important for the listeners that are listening or perhaps going for interviews and stuff like that to ask the questions because yeah, if you're not asking the questions, how can you really know? So that's exactly that's. Really good advice. So moving on to. The next question Holden Wilcox's graduate program. You've experienced rotations through various practice areas via the graduate program to better inform your choice of the area of law that you'd like to practice in. Could you share which areas you rotated through and describe the rotation process? And also, what advice would you offer to aspiring lawyers on selecting the most practice area for them? Sure. So my first rotation was in the banking and financial services team. I then moved to the corporate and commercial team, which is where I've now settled. And my last rotation was in commercial dispute resolution. So in terms of our rotation process, it's 3-4 month rotation. So and I think that's a good amount of time to get a feel for the team, understand what the work is like and what it would look like if you stayed in the team long term. And it's a really great way to build up different skills in different areas and also to meet different people at the firm. So you're not just confined to knowing a handful of people, which is really nice. I think in terms of tips in choosing the practice area you want to work in, be really open minded. I think you don't know what you're going to like until you give it a go. I thought I would never want to do corporate law and that's exactly where I've ended up and I love it. I also think that if you're at a place that rotates and there's an area that you're interested in, go and speak to the people in the team and get a feel for what your day today would be like. Ask them about the work they do and the clients they have, and that will hopefully give you a better idea of if it's something you'd be interested in. I also think if you get to rotate, it's really helpful if you can do a mix of litigation, transactional and advisory work because again, they're three different skill sets where no matter where you're going to end up, they're going to be really, really useful. And if you don't end up in a practice area that you love, it's the same thing. The skills and the knowledge and the relationships you build are going to be useful throughout your whole career. So no matter where you end up, I think that's the most important thing. And So what would you? Say, is the most important thing in determining what practice area is right for you, Whether you'd love that area, whether you find that area really interesting, or perhaps whether you're good at that area. Because I think I've heard of people who perhaps are in a practice area that they're really good at, but they actually don't find the work interesting, nor do they love. It or perhaps. That they love an area because they love the people they love, the culture of the area they love perhaps some of the work, but they don't necessarily find it interesting. Like do you, do you think that's a good combination of both or I think? It's a combination of everything and that's something I struggled with because I loved all three rotations I was in. But I think it is a mix of you have to enjoy what you're doing. You obviously want something that's going to cater to your skill set, but not to say that you can't improve skills that you don't have. I think the team is also super important because you're there five days a week. You want to work in a team where you think it's a good environment and where you're going to learn and where you get along with the people and also where you going to be challenged. So I think it is hopefully finding a mix of everything. And so the team that I think also another important thing. To note is that a lot of lawyers, the teams that they're in, they end up becoming good friends with outside of work as well. Is that something that you've been able to foster? Yeah, I think I've been really lucky in that every team I've been in really social teams as well. So it's really nice to everyone, works really hard and there's a really nice work ethic and culture to the teams. But then you can also have a drink after work or hang out on the weekends and I think it's a really nice balance and super important as well when you're there 5 days. Do you think though? Is is it sometimes hard to switch off? Or do you? Would you say that it to varying degrees, you know people are better at it than than others or? It can be hard sometimes, particularly if you've got a super stressful week or you've got a lot on. But I think it is important when you're out with work colleagues to try and have conversations outside of work and have interests outside of work as well. And ultimately, if you get along well with the people you're in a team with, it's probably because you've got common interests outside of work as well. So that makes it a bit easier. Yeah, that's very true. Actually and. I suppose you do. Better work as well because you're able to bond. And yeah, exactly. Of great, better teamwork. And so in recent. Years. A law firm's culture has. Emerged as a crucial factor in workplace satisfaction. For lawyers and law graduates now. We've all heard unfortunate stories of young lawyers joining a law firm is struggling to fit in with the culture. Which is a real. Shame because even if the work is engaging, the experience can be marred if. Colleagues are not team players or the. Environment is not welcoming. Loris. Have you found the culture at Hall and Wilcox? And what are some? Key things to look out for when trying to gauge a law firm's culture. I think the culture here is a big reason why I really wanted to come to the firm. The way that I would describe our culture is that it's really down to earth, So it's AI work with a really nice group of people and that's super important in terms of being good at what you do, but also enjoying your job. I'd also say we have a really diverse group of people, not just in terms of people's backgrounds, but also in their experiences and the way they think. And that's also really important in one delivering good quality work and being able to improve your skills. And it just makes for a nicer environment where you're not all the same. I also think there's a big focus on learning and development. And for me, that was something that was really important as I was going through interview process and just making sure that I was somewhere where I felt like I was going to be supported and challenged and would be able to grow in my career. So as part of the grad program, you'll get assigned a buddy. You'll also have a mentor and supervising partner throughout the whole process and they're basically your first point of call. So any questions you have And I thought it was really nice to be able to have that relationship early on. So you feel like you've got already a relationship at the firm and someone you can go to. And I think things like that were really important for me when I was looking at cultures of different law firms. Yeah, and I think. Is the relationship with perhaps older and more experienced members of the team, are they is is that something that that that that's obviously there and and flourishing. I mean, so obviously they are this, they're usually the most busy people at the firm and so that can be hard to get hold of. But you would still like, I suppose ideally to have a relationship with more senior members of of of a team or more senior lawyers that can think. Coach you through. Is that something that there's also there? Yeah, exactly. In terms of just who you interact with, the way work is given, you can get work from someone who's a year ahead of you, or from a senior associate or a partner. We don't really have a really hierarchical structure where you're not having any interaction with your partner when when you get feedback, it's exactly the same. They'll bring you into meetings with clients, they'll get you involved in everything. So that's been really good in terms of you feel like you're a big part of the team and you feel like you're building a relationship with the partners you're under from day one. Well, that, that. That's all amazing stuff. Thank you for listening to the Australian Law Student Podcast. The following segment is questions from the Bench. Here we ask our guests a set series of questions designed for you to get to know them better and to get the key advice to help you on your journey. Each week we also take a question from you, our audience, Head over to our socials and send us a message to get your question answered. Thanks for listening. We'll now. Move on to some. Rapid fire questions and then we ask this to all our guests to provide our listeners perhaps a little bit of insight into who, who the person is. And so we'll start off with the first question. And that's what was your. Favorite subject in law school and and why? I think my favorite subject was competition law. It was actually the last subject I did. I was really keen on doing M&A work and that was a good way to kind of understand the regulatory environment. And it's actually a subject that I've used as a paralegal and as a grad. So I think that was my favorite. That's really good. And moving on, what's 1 habit? You believe that's been pivotal to your success in the legal field? I think one thing that's super important is actively seeking out feedback on your work. A lot of the time it will come back to you anyway, but it's really important to ask questions and understand why your work was changed so that you can implement those changes next time and learn from not your mistakes, but learn from things and know how you can improve. Do you have? Any advice to perhaps lawyers or younger law grads that perhaps are a little bit intimidated by asking for feedback from an older lawyer? Is it just do you gotta bite the bullet and do it? Yeah, you really do. And to be honest, it's never a bad thing to ask for feedback. It's gonna show that you're interested and you want to improve, and people will make the time to give you feedback because it also benefits the team. If you can do something quicker and better next time, it's a good outcome for everything. So it's really encouraged. And yeah, you just have to do it. Yeah. Can you name a book or a movie that's significant to you and one you'd recommend to students? It's not very highbrow, but I'm going to say Legally Blonde. I just think that's a great. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I suppose. Yeah. In the realm of legal movies, that's definitely up there. I think is a real fun one. Moving on for students. Aspiring to make an impact in the world. What skill or quality? Do you believe is the most important for them to develop? I think something that's really important is to have resilience. No matter what you're doing, you're going to face challenges and obstacles and if you can be able to persevere through those, particularly if it's something you're passionate about, that's going to allow you to make a long lasting impact in whatever you end up doing. Definitely, definitely resilience. And I suppose. Not to make it a job interview, you can absolutely decline, but. Are there any? Is there? Any times that you think that you can remember in your process that perhaps that you've had to show a bit of resilience and have to. Do that, Yeah, definitely. I think you know we're doing. I've come into doing completely different areas of law where you don't know anything and sometimes when you get feedback or you don't do a great job at something that can be really hard. But I think instead of looking at as a negative, taking that and seeing how you can improve and then using that in the future and basically just persevering. Yeah, yeah, super important. To not become this hard. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and so. Did you always envision? Yourself practicing in the field that you did. And if not, what? Did you think you do? Perhaps? I definitely know a lot of people that. Straight. Out of high school, I thought they were going to do something and then halfway through uni they've then changed. Then even again they've changed. What's that process? I never expected I would do law, particularly I never thought I would do corporate law. I studied communications at uni as well and really liked that and thought I would probably do something in that field or something more creative in general. It wasn't until I actually started working as a paralegal when I was like, oh I love this and this is what I want to do long term. But I yeah, I never thought I'd be here. Yeah, yeah. And so at the start, So what did you think you'd do? Something in communication? Yeah, my major was digital and social media, so I was doing a lot of that. I was doing a lot of web design and app design as well, which I really liked doing something a bit more hands on and creative, so I thought I was going to go down. Do you think, do you think at law firms that you have an opportunity to be, I mean, suppose you're right now? On the podcast. So there there, there are opportunities to be creative even in in the law. Yeah, definitely. I mean, you have to be creative even in the way you think. It doesn't matter what you're doing. We, for example, have a smarter law program, which is all about utilizing technology and innovation to change the way that we do things. One of our grads is a fantastic coder and he's great at IT, and he's been able to use all of those skills to assist the way that he does his legal work. So there's a bunch of opportunities to do. Yeah. And I think the, the, the evolution of of law right now, I mean I think a lot of people are perhaps one of their greatest fears that they'll become sort of robotic and just really be, you know, in a little office cubicle or whatever and just just training out legal documents or whatever. But that's really promising to hear that there is an opportunity to be creative and to actually really problem solved because I think that's that's where a lot of people get interest in their. Work. Yeah, exactly. And in saying that, you can use technology to, you know, get those tasks that aren't as exciting, get them done in a more efficient way, and then you can focus on the things that are more exciting and that you're really interested in as well. Yeah. That's great. Moving on to the next question, what's the greatest? Piece of advice that you've ever received. I think the best piece of advice I've ever received is to always ask questions and to always ask why it doesn't matter what you're working on. It's super important to understand why you're doing something, all the context that's involved. I also think it's not only going to allow you to do better quality work, but it shows that you have a real interest in what you're doing and that you really want to improve and learn as well. Yeah, I think asking questions is, again, another really, really key piece of advice for a lot of lawyers and a lot of people I've spoken to said that exact same thing. I think it's the ability to open up your mind to to the options and to perhaps what you're doing wrong and that sort of stuff, and really ask for that. In your opinion, is there a such thing as a stupid question? I don't think there is. I often lead with my questions as this is probably stupid, but you know then you'll get the response that no. It's not. Because you're always better to ask than not, I think. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And so we'll move. On to a question now from one of our listeners and this one comes in from Jack. Does it matter where you study? To get into law. Or corporate law more. Specifically, would it be OK to study in a different state and apply for perhaps graduate programs in another? In terms of where you study, I don't think it matters at all. We have, I have people in my cohort who have studied all over Australia. I think it's more about what you take away from your university experience. It's the same thing with applying for grad programs. We have people that are from Melbourne. I know in other states they have people from other parts of Australia. I think as long as you can give a commitment that's past the grad program and show you're committed to staying in the state that you're applying for, then it's not a problem. Yeah, absolutely. And I think I've definitely witnessed that as well, just in my own, like life and talking to to people like increasingly we're seeing people in Sydney and Melbourne and even Brisbane and WAA and in South Australia as well. Lawyers are really like up and moving to different places to really experience what Australia has to. Offer. Exactly, in different lifestyles. And a a really big national firm like Owen Wilcox, I imagine is really good at that. You've got offices. Yeah. In in several locations and so. Definitely a good benefit. I was in Melbourne a few weeks ago and it's nice just to be able to meet the people that you're working with and have the option to. So yeah, there's another question I was going to ask is. There a lot of. Sort of cross cross. State sort of work that you're doing with Are you working with teams in Melbourne and in Brisbane? Yeah, it really depends on the team. I think some teams have a much more national practice than others in my experience in the corporate teams, in every team I've rotated through, I've worked with people in the Melbourne office or the Brisbane office, which is really nice because people have different, different matters that they're working on, different focuses for their practice area, and it's just a nice way to meet new people as well. Yeah, yeah. And. Is there even the? Option to perhaps? Go over and move. To to that state if you if you want to work for that branch. Yeah, it's it's definitely something you can raise, I think. It obviously depends on resourcing and if there's a position available. But it has been done for sure. And if it's something you're interested in and bring up, yeah, yeah, if it works out, they could definitely make it work for you. Absolutely, absolutely, And I suppose. Just a a final. Question for me. What? What is being? Sort of one key experience perhaps that you've felt at home. Wilcox has really stood out to you and being being a real, yeah, sort of legacy moment, I think. I think in our first week all the national grads, we had an induction in Melbourne for three days and that was really cool because it was my first like, work trip. And it felt like, wow, I'm really do your trouble doing this. And yeah, starting my career. So that was really nice. And I think we had about 55 grads in our cohort. So to have us all together was really special as well. And it was kind of just you felt like you were about to start something that you've been working for. So I think that's something that's. How long was that? Induction 3 days in Melbourne, yeah, which was great. And and so you got to see the Melbourne officers, obviously. Yeah. And get get yourselves done. Wow, That's really, I feel like that's not something you usually hear. That's definitely something. That's no, we were super lucky. Yeah, yeah. But that's definitely something that's very exclusive to hold on Wilcox, So we've reached, yeah. About the end point. Of the podcast So. Laurie, thank. You so much for joining with me today. And all the best for the upcoming. Year and the rest of your career and so looking forward to speaking to you again soon. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.