Transcript
Hello everyone and welcome back
to the Australian Law Student
Podcast.
I'm your host Oliver Hammond and
I'm pleased to announce that for
season 3/20/25, Harlan Wilcox
has decided to support the
Australian Law Student and its
journey to assist students.
In today's episode, I had the
pleasure of sitting down with
Madeline Hampson, a graduate at
Harlan Wilcox.
In this episode, we dived into
her journey from law student to
working full time 1 of
Australia's leading commercial
firms, what the transition's
been like, what she's learned,
and her tips for students
looking to break into big law.
If you're a law student thinking
about graduate opportunities and
like what you hear in this
episode, head over to Holland
Wilcox's career page.
You can check out the link in
the podcast description to find
out more.
But without further ado, sit
back, relax, and enjoy the
podcast.
Hello everyone, and welcome back
to the Australian Law Student
Podcast.
I'm your host, Oliver Hammond,
and today I'm joined by a very
special guest.
I've got a graduate here from
Holland Wilcox, and now we'd
like to start off with some
questions just to get to know
what Holland Wilcox is about.
And so I'll ask my first
question here to Melvin.
What drew you to Holland Wilcox
specifically, and how did the
firm's graduate program align
with your career goals?
Thanks Oliver.
I was looking for a reputable
firm in Australia that had this
perfect balance between an
established reputation in its
practice areas and also at the
same time as looking to grow and
innovate and adapt to
technology.
And I found Hall of Wilcox had
that perfect balance.
It was definitely something that
was important to me as I grow in
my legal career, that the firm
grows with me.
So Holland Wilcox definitely
narrowed the brief on that.
That's great.
And I suppose Holland Wilcox
does have that emphasis on a
smarter law approach.
And I suppose in your life as a
as a graduate and I suppose a
little bit of back story about
you, I mean mentioned that you
were a previously mentioned that
you were a tip staff in in the
courts.
I mean, what's what sort of
technological attitudes at Hall,
the Wilcox taking that I think
really sets them apart from
perhaps even the courts or
perhaps other firms And have
have you noticed that?
I think it's the fact that they
actively find ways to use new
technologies in their daily
life.
Like at the moment we have a
copilot trial that a couple of
my colleagues are working on to
figure out how we can grow with
the technologies and not against
them.
Holland Wilcox has always been a
firm that's cared about that and
it's cared about their growth.
So I've really enjoyed that
experience with them.
And the graduate program itself
does have different ways of the
training.
The lawyers, like we have a
program that we follow
throughout the year that we
learn about different
technologies and how to use them
in our daily lives as well.
The courts, as you can imagine,
may not use these technologies.
They're a little bit more
traditional in the focus, but I
think that that's what society
needs them to be.
But coming to the graduate
program, I've really enjoyed the
technological aspect of it.
Yeah.
I can imagine that going from
perhaps a bit more physical copy
records and things like that to
sort of more digital stuff, plus
the use of something like
Copilot, you're seeing, yeah,
these sort of technological
advancements across the board.
And it's good to see that a firm
like Colin Wilcox is, is, is, is
appreciating that and taking
those on board and that does
really set them apart, I
suppose.
Now moving on to your time in
the graduate program, could you
share about a bit about the
structure of the graduate
program and what aspects you
think it sets it sets it apart
from other firms?
Yeah, of course.
So the structure of the graduate
program, we do 3-4 month
rotations.
In each of those rotations you
were given a mentor and a
supervising partner.
And at the beginning with the
program you are given a buddy
that those mentors and
supervising partners oversee
your work and provide you
feedback.
But we do have a bit of a
horizontal structure in that you
can receive work from anyone in
the team, whether that's a first
year lawyer or whether that's a
partner themselves.
And I think that in itself sets
a firm apart because you,
because we have an open plan
office, you are sitting
sometimes next to the partner
that can just laying around the
desk and give you that work.
So it's very open flat structure
that we operate in.
And I think the timing of the
rotations also sets apart the
firm.
I think four months is enough
where you gain experience and
understand the lifestyle that
each of these loads live and the
work that they do.
And it's also not too long that
you're sitting there wondering
what the next thing is and
you're not in a program for two
years.
And you can really get a head
start in your career if you
complete the program in a year's
time.
And I suppose with that sort of
more approachable approach,
let's say the more horizontal
approach, do you find that
you're able to still get that
sort of mentorship advice with
partners?
But also, you know, how do you
separate, I suppose that perhaps
from perhaps this idea that
there should be perhaps a bigger
distinction between partners,
You know, for example, with the
sort of more traditional style,
the more traditional
hierarchical style part you,
it's very rare that you'd
perhaps get in contact with
partners, you know, each, each
day or each and perhaps
sometimes even weeks.
You're dealing with senior
associates, lawyers that are in
between that you know how how
much perhaps on a on a
day-to-day basis, do you
interact with more experienced
and, and, and does that do you
think that that mentorship
helps?
I think it puts you on a fast
track to progress in your
career.
I think that interacts with my
partners and I have in previous
teams almost daily or if not
daily.
And because I'm getting
mentorship directly from the
best of the best, it means that
the feedback that I'm getting is
valuable, it's consistent and
it's comes with decades of
experience behind it.
And in perhaps from so you have
a more traditional structure
where you have to go through 3
or 4 levels and you don't get
that connection as fast.
I query whether you will get the
progression as fast.
And Holland Wilcox really prides
itself on giving you dynamic and
hands on experience straight
away.
And that's what I've found with
the program that really sets it
apart.
Well, and I suppose in in your
time as in in in a graduate, in
this graduate position, have you
found the work?
Have you have you found the work
engaging?
Do you feel as if sometimes
perhaps it's less so?
Do you really think that whole
milk is giving you the best
opportunities?
I think when it comes to the
sort of type of work that you're
doing.
I do think that they're giving
me the best opportunities for
the work that I've been given
because it's engaging in the
sense that I have been, I should
say that I've been in the
general insurance team, I've
been in the dispute resolution
team, and I'm now in the tax
team.
So one team that's half
litigation, half advisory.
Very broad areas.
Yeah.
One that's litigation and one
that's completely advisory in
the work that we do in Sydney.
And I think I have drafted
devices, I have gone and
appeared at court, I've attended
client meetings, mediations,
directions, hearings, hearings.
And I think by listing this that
you can tell that Holy Wilcox
really prides itself on getting
the graduates involved.
And I think that's how you keep
graduates engaged and especially
in a short period of time, it's
four months, you really want to
give them that breadth of
experience.
And Holy Wilcox definitely
invest in their junior lives in
doing that.
I think so and and I think as
well, I think if if you have
friends who are graduates or
anything like that for any
listeners or you've been a
graduate yourself, you realize
that some firms you are swamped
sometimes with paperwork, you're
on those nasty tasks.
But it sounds like all the
Wilcox takes a much different
approach and much more hands on
approach.
And I think that that makes it
much more engaging.
And definitely, I mean, there
are always times where you are
stuck with some tedious tasks,
but I'm happy to say that those
are the absolute minority in my
work, and more meaningful and
progressive tasks have been
given to me at a graduate level
that may not otherwise be given
in other firms.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think, I think now moving
on, how has Holland Wilcox
assisted you to explore or
refine your areas of interest in
the law?
I mean, you mentioned some of
the graduations that you've done
very broad areas and, and did it
perhaps challenge any
preferences you might have had
going in or, or do perhaps it
might have reinforced those And
you know, for example, if you
went in loving tax, you might
have well hated it to the.
That's fair enough.
It's done both.
And so first, my previous
experience has been primarily in
commercial litigation.
I worked for a senior counsel
while I was in university and
then I visited S Supreme Court
and now I'm at the firm.
And all of this was primarily in
commercial litigation.
So going into the dispute
resolution team, I, I knew that
I would enjoy it.
And Wilcox reinforced that
surprisingly, I love tax law at
uni.
Everyone is always shocked about
that.
So again, they've reinforced my
interest in tax law from being
at the tax team.
But I definitely think I was
challenged in keeping an open
mind with general insurance
because when you hear insurance,
you do think of it being quite
niche.
Whereas I had such a broad
experience on the matters that I
was working in on insurance.
And I think that really, I've
decided kept an open mind about
going into that rotation and I
was really happy that I did
because I hadn't worked in
insurance.
And then I saw the quality of
work that we were doing in
insurance and I really enjoyed
that.
So I would say to anyone that
they need to keep an open mind
because you don't know if you
like something until you have
worked in it.
And I think Colin Wilcox has
definitely assisted both to
reinforce but also to challenge
my views on different areas of
the law.
Yeah.
And so after this graduate
program, obviously you'll select
the area that you you think
you're most interested in.
Do you have a preference at the
moment or is this something
that?
That is difficult.
To say.
Honestly, I have found that I've
loved all areas that I've worked
in, so I am not sure it's hard.
It's a hard decision to make.
Well, sounds like all the Wilcox
have set you up to, to be able
to choose that position with a
with a very open mind.
And I think that's really good
when it comes to your your time
as a graduate.
I suppose now also looking a
little bit into that's when you
first started off in the
graduate program.
What were some of the things
like what I mean, talk about
some of the training.
I know that that Hall and
Wilcox, they have offices in
other areas of Australia.
And I know that Sydney's,
Sydney's offices is quite strong
at a larger office and things
like that.
How was the introductory process
I suppose?
The introduction approach, this
is great.
We had our first day here and
then we nationally flew down to
Melbourne.
So I think there was about 55 or
57 of us nationally, including
all of our offices including
Newcastle, Darwin, Perth,
Brisbane, Melbourne.
Like everyone came together for
a couple of days.
We did a range of activities to
find out who we are as people
and then learn about, obviously
the firm's induction processes.
And then when you come into the
firm, each of your teams gives
you that introduction and
they'll give you a run through
of what is happening in each
team.
And you'll find that at the
beginning of each rotation also
depending on the team that you
work in, you may actually
collaborate with different
offices.
For example, Tax is a national
team and a lot of them are based
in Melbourne.
So I'm constantly talking with
the people in Melbourne there.
I found in dispute resolution
and a similar experience with
the Newcastle and Brisbane
teams.
I did work for some of those as
well.
So I think the strength in Hall
and Wilcox having those national
offices is that you do get this
cross-border collaboration and
also cross team collaboration.
Yeah, really.
Good.
And I think as well, like I
think getting all the grads
together from all these
different offices, I mean, it
must foster some some good
friendship and some good
camaraderie amongst the grads,
which I think is again another
really, it has to be a massive
pro.
It has to be a massive.
Definitely.
It's really great.
And even when you see, for
example, the graduates have to
send out a quiz e-mail every
day, it's something that does.
And the graduates host at least
on level 17 with the commercial
teams, the quiz at 5:00 PM each
day.
And when you see the names of
the national grads coming
through, like, you really
remember who's who from the
induction week.
And it's it's nice to know that
we had formed those bonds at the
beginning.
Well, it's, yeah, it's a very, I
think, yeah, it must just foster
great teamwork.
And I think that's a, again,
another really big benefit of
Paul and Wilcox's approach.
We'll then move on to perhaps
some more of our standardized
questions, some more personal
questions about yourself.
We'll start off with the first
question.
What was your favorite subject
in law school and why?
I would say equity and trust I,
it's maybe a controversial
answer, but I think I was told
that it was going to be
notoriously difficult and I like
a challenge.
So it was one that I definitely
put a lot of extra effort into
doing well in.
And in doing so I really liked
it and it ended up being my best
subject.
So maybe that's why I like it
the most.
Yeah, there I think there is a
definitely a vein of of people
when they hear that there's
going to be a difficult
challenge, when it's a hard
challenge, they try harder.
And because they try harder,
they actually love it more and
then they do better.
So yeah.
And I think, I mean, at the
moment, I know lots of people, I
mean myself, I'm doing pretty
and trust right now.
And yeah, I mean, it is a very
interesting area of the law.
And I think yeah, as well,
though if you if, if you're in
the camp of, of the ones that
love it, I think you really do
love it.
But I think there is, yeah.
There might be a bit of a
controversial answer.
And we want a second question.
Do you have a book or a movie
that's significant to you and
one you'd recommend to students?
I actually do.
It's a non fiction work called
The Defining Decade by Meg Jay.
She completed a PhD and has
continued to present on this
idea of why 30 is not the new
20.
And it challenges all these
ideas that you know you have to
have everything sorted out in
your 20s, which you obviously
don't.
But it also gives you some great
tools in making it the best
decade possible to set you up.
While the lessons it does sound
like she is talking about this
can only be done in your 20s.
I think the knowledge in that
book is really applicable to all
decades of life, so recommend.
Reading it and so is is it so
sorry talking about how in your
20s to trying to set yourself up
for.
Correct.
Yes, yes.
So it talks about the ideas of
identity capital, which I know
sounds like a buzzword, but
she's basically saying that you
should make sure that you travel
and do as many things in your
20s that you can talk about
later in your life, because
you'll never know when you'll
connect with people and form
connections based on those
things that you've done.
Yeah.
And I think I think it's very
applicable, I think to a lot of
more students.
They often are in this sometimes
perhaps for better or for worse.
I think at law school, I mean,
lots of people I think go
straight from high school to law
school and then law school to a,
to a graduate position.
And, you know, there's nothing
wrong with that, that method,
that's hard working method.
But you're right.
I think you do have to have some
exterior experiences.
You need to get out there on
those holidays.
You need to do things like that.
Exactly.
And and be well, I think
rounded, but yeah.
Exactly.
And then even having different
work life experiences as well,
like for example, I worked at
the hospital, yes, while I was
in uni for five years.
So things like that, experiences
outside the law are so important
for your career.
And I think this book really
highlights that I.
Know I know stories of grads who
before or sometimes even clerks
before becoming a clerk or a
grad, they'll, they'll purposely
take a job that they haven't
taken.
Like, I know one of my friends
he, like, worked at the pub for
like, like, like, like leading
up to be a grad because he was
just like, I'm probably never
work in a pub again, so I wanna
do it.
Yeah, that was something he did.
I mean, that will teach you all
you need to know about social.
Skills.
Yeah, exactly.
You're talking to people and
stuff like that.
Yeah, perfect.
So would be good.
We've got to the next question.
Did you always envision yourself
as a lawyer or perhaps in the
practice areas that you do like?
And if not, what did you think
you'd do?
I did not.
I envisioned myself as a chef.
I started university.
I still in my second year
thought I was going to drop out
and become a chef.
I'm glad I didn't in the end.
But no, being a lawyer was not
always on the cards for me.
I did really enjoy it when I was
in university, don't get me
wrong, but I always envisioned
myself doing something hands on
and law is hands on in a
different way.
Well, I mean, I think being in a
chef, I think some of those
skills, those organizational
skills, they often talk about
meson plus and it's the the the
the French word for everything
in its place.
Exactly.
But yeah, yeah, I mean, like
those those sorts of
organizational skills I think
that chefs have.
But but I mean, yeah.
Is it something that's still
hobbies to you?
Do you?
Think oh I still love cooking
very much so I believe that I
grad.
Some of my year are quite close
and we recently went on a trip
away and I did a fair bit of
cooking on that weekend for the
for the grads so it worked out
wasn't.
It that's great.
That's great, I'm doing both.
Yeah.
You're still exercising that
muscle.
And now we're approaching
towards the end of the podcast.
And so I'll ask the final
question.
Is there a piece of advice
you've received that stands out
from the rest, and one that
you'd like to share?
Yes, I think the best piece of
advice I received was that every
rejection is a redirection.
So no matter what rejections
come your way, whether it be in
the clerkship process, whether
it be in the graduate process,
it does not mean that you have
done something wrong.
It means that there's something
else out there for you and it
just wasn't in that into a
specific direction you were
aiming for.
I think in university, every law
students keep trying to plan
their careers and quite frankly,
at the beginning you stumble
into where you're going to go
and you can make decisions based
on that.
So I think keeping in mind that
every rejection you receive,
it's not a reflection on you, it
is just a redirection of where
you might start off, that's.
Really great advice.
And I think, well, when I talked
to people who have gone through
interview processes and things
like that and have come out and
have been rejected, I think you
can look at it in the negative
sense, but I think in the
positive sense, it's well, they
didn't think that they were a
right fit for you and so you
probably weren't a right fit for
them.
So, you know, you're also
winning in the, in the sense
that you're right, you're
getting redirected and you're,
you're avoiding a place where
perhaps you, you wouldn't have
fit and, and, and so on and so
forth.
But that's about what all that
we have time for for today.
Thanks so much for sitting down
with me and I wish you all the
best for the rest of the year.
Perfect.
Thanks, Oliver.
Thank you.