Madeleine Hampson: A Grad’s Perspective Inside Hall & Wilcox

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Australian Law Student Podcast. I'm your host Oliver Hammond and I'm pleased to announce that for season 3/20/25, Harlan Wilcox has decided to support the Australian Law Student and its journey to assist students. In today's episode, I had the pleasure of sitting down with Madeline Hampson, a graduate at Harlan Wilcox. In this episode, we dived into her journey from law student to working full time 1 of Australia's leading commercial firms, what the transition's been like, what she's learned, and her tips for students looking to break into big law. If you're a law student thinking about graduate opportunities and like what you hear in this episode, head over to Holland Wilcox's career page. You can check out the link in the podcast description to find out more. But without further ado, sit back, relax, and enjoy the podcast. Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Australian Law Student Podcast. I'm your host, Oliver Hammond, and today I'm joined by a very special guest. I've got a graduate here from Holland Wilcox, and now we'd like to start off with some questions just to get to know what Holland Wilcox is about. And so I'll ask my first question here to Melvin. What drew you to Holland Wilcox specifically, and how did the firm's graduate program align with your career goals? Thanks Oliver. I was looking for a reputable firm in Australia that had this perfect balance between an established reputation in its practice areas and also at the same time as looking to grow and innovate and adapt to technology. And I found Hall of Wilcox had that perfect balance. It was definitely something that was important to me as I grow in my legal career, that the firm grows with me. So Holland Wilcox definitely narrowed the brief on that. That's great. And I suppose Holland Wilcox does have that emphasis on a smarter law approach. And I suppose in your life as a as a graduate and I suppose a little bit of back story about you, I mean mentioned that you were a previously mentioned that you were a tip staff in in the courts. I mean, what's what sort of technological attitudes at Hall, the Wilcox taking that I think really sets them apart from perhaps even the courts or perhaps other firms And have have you noticed that? I think it's the fact that they actively find ways to use new technologies in their daily life. Like at the moment we have a copilot trial that a couple of my colleagues are working on to figure out how we can grow with the technologies and not against them. Holland Wilcox has always been a firm that's cared about that and it's cared about their growth. So I've really enjoyed that experience with them. And the graduate program itself does have different ways of the training. The lawyers, like we have a program that we follow throughout the year that we learn about different technologies and how to use them in our daily lives as well. The courts, as you can imagine, may not use these technologies. They're a little bit more traditional in the focus, but I think that that's what society needs them to be. But coming to the graduate program, I've really enjoyed the technological aspect of it. Yeah. I can imagine that going from perhaps a bit more physical copy records and things like that to sort of more digital stuff, plus the use of something like Copilot, you're seeing, yeah, these sort of technological advancements across the board. And it's good to see that a firm like Colin Wilcox is, is, is, is appreciating that and taking those on board and that does really set them apart, I suppose. Now moving on to your time in the graduate program, could you share about a bit about the structure of the graduate program and what aspects you think it sets it sets it apart from other firms? Yeah, of course. So the structure of the graduate program, we do 3-4 month rotations. In each of those rotations you were given a mentor and a supervising partner. And at the beginning with the program you are given a buddy that those mentors and supervising partners oversee your work and provide you feedback. But we do have a bit of a horizontal structure in that you can receive work from anyone in the team, whether that's a first year lawyer or whether that's a partner themselves. And I think that in itself sets a firm apart because you, because we have an open plan office, you are sitting sometimes next to the partner that can just laying around the desk and give you that work. So it's very open flat structure that we operate in. And I think the timing of the rotations also sets apart the firm. I think four months is enough where you gain experience and understand the lifestyle that each of these loads live and the work that they do. And it's also not too long that you're sitting there wondering what the next thing is and you're not in a program for two years. And you can really get a head start in your career if you complete the program in a year's time. And I suppose with that sort of more approachable approach, let's say the more horizontal approach, do you find that you're able to still get that sort of mentorship advice with partners? But also, you know, how do you separate, I suppose that perhaps from perhaps this idea that there should be perhaps a bigger distinction between partners, You know, for example, with the sort of more traditional style, the more traditional hierarchical style part you, it's very rare that you'd perhaps get in contact with partners, you know, each, each day or each and perhaps sometimes even weeks. You're dealing with senior associates, lawyers that are in between that you know how how much perhaps on a on a day-to-day basis, do you interact with more experienced and, and, and does that do you think that that mentorship helps? I think it puts you on a fast track to progress in your career. I think that interacts with my partners and I have in previous teams almost daily or if not daily. And because I'm getting mentorship directly from the best of the best, it means that the feedback that I'm getting is valuable, it's consistent and it's comes with decades of experience behind it. And in perhaps from so you have a more traditional structure where you have to go through 3 or 4 levels and you don't get that connection as fast. I query whether you will get the progression as fast. And Holland Wilcox really prides itself on giving you dynamic and hands on experience straight away. And that's what I've found with the program that really sets it apart. Well, and I suppose in in your time as in in in a graduate, in this graduate position, have you found the work? Have you have you found the work engaging? Do you feel as if sometimes perhaps it's less so? Do you really think that whole milk is giving you the best opportunities? I think when it comes to the sort of type of work that you're doing. I do think that they're giving me the best opportunities for the work that I've been given because it's engaging in the sense that I have been, I should say that I've been in the general insurance team, I've been in the dispute resolution team, and I'm now in the tax team. So one team that's half litigation, half advisory. Very broad areas. Yeah. One that's litigation and one that's completely advisory in the work that we do in Sydney. And I think I have drafted devices, I have gone and appeared at court, I've attended client meetings, mediations, directions, hearings, hearings. And I think by listing this that you can tell that Holy Wilcox really prides itself on getting the graduates involved. And I think that's how you keep graduates engaged and especially in a short period of time, it's four months, you really want to give them that breadth of experience. And Holy Wilcox definitely invest in their junior lives in doing that. I think so and and I think as well, I think if if you have friends who are graduates or anything like that for any listeners or you've been a graduate yourself, you realize that some firms you are swamped sometimes with paperwork, you're on those nasty tasks. But it sounds like all the Wilcox takes a much different approach and much more hands on approach. And I think that that makes it much more engaging. And definitely, I mean, there are always times where you are stuck with some tedious tasks, but I'm happy to say that those are the absolute minority in my work, and more meaningful and progressive tasks have been given to me at a graduate level that may not otherwise be given in other firms. Yeah, yeah. And I think, I think now moving on, how has Holland Wilcox assisted you to explore or refine your areas of interest in the law? I mean, you mentioned some of the graduations that you've done very broad areas and, and did it perhaps challenge any preferences you might have had going in or, or do perhaps it might have reinforced those And you know, for example, if you went in loving tax, you might have well hated it to the. That's fair enough. It's done both. And so first, my previous experience has been primarily in commercial litigation. I worked for a senior counsel while I was in university and then I visited S Supreme Court and now I'm at the firm. And all of this was primarily in commercial litigation. So going into the dispute resolution team, I, I knew that I would enjoy it. And Wilcox reinforced that surprisingly, I love tax law at uni. Everyone is always shocked about that. So again, they've reinforced my interest in tax law from being at the tax team. But I definitely think I was challenged in keeping an open mind with general insurance because when you hear insurance, you do think of it being quite niche. Whereas I had such a broad experience on the matters that I was working in on insurance. And I think that really, I've decided kept an open mind about going into that rotation and I was really happy that I did because I hadn't worked in insurance. And then I saw the quality of work that we were doing in insurance and I really enjoyed that. So I would say to anyone that they need to keep an open mind because you don't know if you like something until you have worked in it. And I think Colin Wilcox has definitely assisted both to reinforce but also to challenge my views on different areas of the law. Yeah. And so after this graduate program, obviously you'll select the area that you you think you're most interested in. Do you have a preference at the moment or is this something that? That is difficult. To say. Honestly, I have found that I've loved all areas that I've worked in, so I am not sure it's hard. It's a hard decision to make. Well, sounds like all the Wilcox have set you up to, to be able to choose that position with a with a very open mind. And I think that's really good when it comes to your your time as a graduate. I suppose now also looking a little bit into that's when you first started off in the graduate program. What were some of the things like what I mean, talk about some of the training. I know that that Hall and Wilcox, they have offices in other areas of Australia. And I know that Sydney's, Sydney's offices is quite strong at a larger office and things like that. How was the introductory process I suppose? The introduction approach, this is great. We had our first day here and then we nationally flew down to Melbourne. So I think there was about 55 or 57 of us nationally, including all of our offices including Newcastle, Darwin, Perth, Brisbane, Melbourne. Like everyone came together for a couple of days. We did a range of activities to find out who we are as people and then learn about, obviously the firm's induction processes. And then when you come into the firm, each of your teams gives you that introduction and they'll give you a run through of what is happening in each team. And you'll find that at the beginning of each rotation also depending on the team that you work in, you may actually collaborate with different offices. For example, Tax is a national team and a lot of them are based in Melbourne. So I'm constantly talking with the people in Melbourne there. I found in dispute resolution and a similar experience with the Newcastle and Brisbane teams. I did work for some of those as well. So I think the strength in Hall and Wilcox having those national offices is that you do get this cross-border collaboration and also cross team collaboration. Yeah, really. Good. And I think as well, like I think getting all the grads together from all these different offices, I mean, it must foster some some good friendship and some good camaraderie amongst the grads, which I think is again another really, it has to be a massive pro. It has to be a massive. Definitely. It's really great. And even when you see, for example, the graduates have to send out a quiz e-mail every day, it's something that does. And the graduates host at least on level 17 with the commercial teams, the quiz at 5:00 PM each day. And when you see the names of the national grads coming through, like, you really remember who's who from the induction week. And it's it's nice to know that we had formed those bonds at the beginning. Well, it's, yeah, it's a very, I think, yeah, it must just foster great teamwork. And I think that's a, again, another really big benefit of Paul and Wilcox's approach. We'll then move on to perhaps some more of our standardized questions, some more personal questions about yourself. We'll start off with the first question. What was your favorite subject in law school and why? I would say equity and trust I, it's maybe a controversial answer, but I think I was told that it was going to be notoriously difficult and I like a challenge. So it was one that I definitely put a lot of extra effort into doing well in. And in doing so I really liked it and it ended up being my best subject. So maybe that's why I like it the most. Yeah, there I think there is a definitely a vein of of people when they hear that there's going to be a difficult challenge, when it's a hard challenge, they try harder. And because they try harder, they actually love it more and then they do better. So yeah. And I think, I mean, at the moment, I know lots of people, I mean myself, I'm doing pretty and trust right now. And yeah, I mean, it is a very interesting area of the law. And I think yeah, as well, though if you if, if you're in the camp of, of the ones that love it, I think you really do love it. But I think there is, yeah. There might be a bit of a controversial answer. And we want a second question. Do you have a book or a movie that's significant to you and one you'd recommend to students? I actually do. It's a non fiction work called The Defining Decade by Meg Jay. She completed a PhD and has continued to present on this idea of why 30 is not the new 20. And it challenges all these ideas that you know you have to have everything sorted out in your 20s, which you obviously don't. But it also gives you some great tools in making it the best decade possible to set you up. While the lessons it does sound like she is talking about this can only be done in your 20s. I think the knowledge in that book is really applicable to all decades of life, so recommend. Reading it and so is is it so sorry talking about how in your 20s to trying to set yourself up for. Correct. Yes, yes. So it talks about the ideas of identity capital, which I know sounds like a buzzword, but she's basically saying that you should make sure that you travel and do as many things in your 20s that you can talk about later in your life, because you'll never know when you'll connect with people and form connections based on those things that you've done. Yeah. And I think I think it's very applicable, I think to a lot of more students. They often are in this sometimes perhaps for better or for worse. I think at law school, I mean, lots of people I think go straight from high school to law school and then law school to a, to a graduate position. And, you know, there's nothing wrong with that, that method, that's hard working method. But you're right. I think you do have to have some exterior experiences. You need to get out there on those holidays. You need to do things like that. Exactly. And and be well, I think rounded, but yeah. Exactly. And then even having different work life experiences as well, like for example, I worked at the hospital, yes, while I was in uni for five years. So things like that, experiences outside the law are so important for your career. And I think this book really highlights that I. Know I know stories of grads who before or sometimes even clerks before becoming a clerk or a grad, they'll, they'll purposely take a job that they haven't taken. Like, I know one of my friends he, like, worked at the pub for like, like, like, like leading up to be a grad because he was just like, I'm probably never work in a pub again, so I wanna do it. Yeah, that was something he did. I mean, that will teach you all you need to know about social. Skills. Yeah, exactly. You're talking to people and stuff like that. Yeah, perfect. So would be good. We've got to the next question. Did you always envision yourself as a lawyer or perhaps in the practice areas that you do like? And if not, what did you think you'd do? I did not. I envisioned myself as a chef. I started university. I still in my second year thought I was going to drop out and become a chef. I'm glad I didn't in the end. But no, being a lawyer was not always on the cards for me. I did really enjoy it when I was in university, don't get me wrong, but I always envisioned myself doing something hands on and law is hands on in a different way. Well, I mean, I think being in a chef, I think some of those skills, those organizational skills, they often talk about meson plus and it's the the the the French word for everything in its place. Exactly. But yeah, yeah, I mean, like those those sorts of organizational skills I think that chefs have. But but I mean, yeah. Is it something that's still hobbies to you? Do you? Think oh I still love cooking very much so I believe that I grad. Some of my year are quite close and we recently went on a trip away and I did a fair bit of cooking on that weekend for the for the grads so it worked out wasn't. It that's great. That's great, I'm doing both. Yeah. You're still exercising that muscle. And now we're approaching towards the end of the podcast. And so I'll ask the final question. Is there a piece of advice you've received that stands out from the rest, and one that you'd like to share? Yes, I think the best piece of advice I received was that every rejection is a redirection. So no matter what rejections come your way, whether it be in the clerkship process, whether it be in the graduate process, it does not mean that you have done something wrong. It means that there's something else out there for you and it just wasn't in that into a specific direction you were aiming for. I think in university, every law students keep trying to plan their careers and quite frankly, at the beginning you stumble into where you're going to go and you can make decisions based on that. So I think keeping in mind that every rejection you receive, it's not a reflection on you, it is just a redirection of where you might start off, that's. Really great advice. And I think, well, when I talked to people who have gone through interview processes and things like that and have come out and have been rejected, I think you can look at it in the negative sense, but I think in the positive sense, it's well, they didn't think that they were a right fit for you and so you probably weren't a right fit for them. So, you know, you're also winning in the, in the sense that you're right, you're getting redirected and you're, you're avoiding a place where perhaps you, you wouldn't have fit and, and, and so on and so forth. But that's about what all that we have time for for today. Thanks so much for sitting down with me and I wish you all the best for the rest of the year. Perfect. Thanks, Oliver. Thank you.