Transcript
Hello and welcome to the
Australian Law Student Podcast.
I'm your host Oliver Hammond,
and on today's episode it was my
pleasure to welcome lawyer
Stephen McCauley.
In this episode, Stephen
welcomed me into his lovely
Parramatta offices and we were
able to dial into his diverse
experience in the legal realm,
from working for a Supreme Court
judge to founding his own law
firm.
We talk about the dynamics of
commercial litigation and what
it takes to run your own law
firm.
He also shares invaluable
insights for budding lawyers
looking to find their.
Chosen practice area.
So without further ado, sit
back, relax and enjoy the
podcast.
Thank you, Steven.
McAuley for joining with me
today, we.
Want to start off?
With our first question and I I.
Wanted to ask.
You that if you could share your
journey from being a law student
to perhaps experiencing working
for the Supreme Court of NSW as
a judge and eventually founding
Macaulay Lawyers.
What What inspired you to take
these pivotal transitions in
your career, and what really
inspired you to get into private
practice?
So I went to Macquarie
University and did my Bachelor
of Laws and Bachelor of Applied
Finance.
I found university very
theoretical and there's a lot of
reading, a lot of cases, and I
really found that in the first
six months of being in the real
world, so to speak, working for
a judge at the Supreme Court.
I learnt much more in those
first six months than I did in
the five years that I spent at
university.
It's a lot more practical being
out in the real world dealing
with real cases, but I think
university is a good groundwork
for being in in in practice.
But there's nothing like
learning on the job and dealing
with real people, real cases,
real life situations where
people's lives are on the line.
So I did my five years at
Macquarie and then during my
time at university I worked for
a large law firm as a paralegal,
which was a great experience
seeing how a a really big law
firm worked.
And then when I got towards the
end of my degree, I started
sending my regime out to lots of
different people.
And I I took the approach that
it it was just a good idea to
just send out my regime to a
whole number of different areas.
I I really didn't know what I
wanted to get into.
I was sort of interested in
finance, but I was also
interested in law.
But I I wasn't really attracted
to being a lawyer at that stage,
even though I spent a number of
years at at Macquarie and I
really didn't know.
After coming towards the end of
my law degree, I didn't know
really what I wanted to do, but
I just happened to send my
resume to a Supreme Court judge
and when I got a phone call and
he had a a chat with him, was a
very informal chat, He was a
lovely fellow and so I ended up
working for a Supreme Court
judge for a year, which was a
really great experience.
So we we did some very
interesting cases, high profile
cases.
So I was his tip staff.
So I I did research for him, I
helped him around the chambers.
And the, I mean the great thing
about working for a judge was
that I got to really sit in on
the cases and and learn from him
about what works in terms of
presenting a case in court, what
doesn't work.
And the cases were really
interesting.
So I'd highly recommend to law
students to apply to the Supreme
Court.
There's about 50 judges, so
every year they have a year, a
tip staff for each year.
So that was a really great
experience.
And then, so once I'd done my
year for the judge, I went and
worked in private practice.
I was admitted as a solicitor
and so I worked in a small law
firm after that doing wills and
estates.
And then I worked in a a
litigation firm and then I
worked in another bigger
litigation firm which is all
great experience.
And I think the great thing
about my early career was I got
to see big firms, small firms,
mid sized firms.
I didn't become pigeonholed
doing a particular area.
I've got a a range of different
experience and I found what I
liked, which was litigation.
And then I set up my own firm.
So after about five years as a
as an employed solicitor, I set
up my own firm.
And so transitioning to private.
Practice I suppose is a
completely different field and
definitely not spoken as much
about to law students.
One of the sort of challenges
that I think initially is sort
of faced is this idea of you
know, how am I going to get
work, how am I going to get
clients, you know, and and the
sort of skill set that that goes
beyond being a lawyer and
actually being a business owner,
being a people person, being
someone who can communicate with
those.
How did you develop those skills
and how did you, I suppose, get
clients and and what were the
sort of things that you were
doing?
So I I think I've always taken
the approach that it's a good
idea to get involved in things.
So if if someone asks you to do
something, and maybe you feel
initially a bit uncomfortable
about doing it, just to say yes
to it.
I think.
I hope that is in relation to
this podcast, by the way.
No, no, no, no, but no.
I've always taken that advantage
and I have found over.
I mean, I I've been now a
solicitor for nearly 20 years
that that one thing leads to
another.
So you you say yes to doing
something that maybe you could
be a bit more comfortable and
say no to and then that thing
will lead to something else.
And and it's the same in in in
practice.
So you do something, you do a
good job for some person who
needs legal advice, and then
that person will refer
something, their their friend or
their colleague to you.
And it's just like a ripple
effect.
So one thing leads to another
and.
Doing a good job.
That's right, it's not that
hard.
But I have got involved in the
local regional Law Society.
So I spent three years as
president of the Parramatta Law
Society.
I've been on the council of the
Law Society of NSW, I've been
part of other boards and and
charities.
So, but my advice would be to
young lawyers because really I
mean there's so many lawyers in
NSW.
I think last year we ticked over
40,000 solicitors in NSW.
So there really is a saturation
of of lawyers.
But I think as a young lawyer
where you get real value is not
just I mean there's lots of very
good lawyers out there.
But to really stand out you
actually do need to sort of
promote yourself to to get
involved in different activities
so that you do develop that
capacity to to develop an income
stream And and if you want to
have your own firm knowing
people is really the way to to
build up a a flow of work.
So I it's not just about being a
technical good lawyer.
You've also you've got to have
that second dimension.
To you it's it's a really be
active.
Get involved in things.
And so with private.
Practice in something like
Parramatta, it's the the, the,
the work as I imagine is, is
pretty steady.
Sydney is, I suppose is a big
place.
However, everyone knows that
there's there's in the city,
there's the obviously that's
where probably, I don't know if
it's a majority, but certainly a
lot of that 40,000 figure that
you've brought up would would be
what would you.
Would would you say?
That to lawyers that perhaps and
and law students to not be so
focused on, on the sort of CBD
and to sort of really branch
out.
Absolutely.
I I mean here in Parramatta,
it's the geographical centre of
Sydney.
You've got the new airport
coming in, in a couple of years
in the southwest, yeah, I think
this is the third or fourth
biggest city in Australia.
It's really the the amount of
development going on out here in
Parramatta is enormous and the
the Sky's the limit there.
There is a lot of opportunity
out here.
I think traditionally lawyers
have set up in the CBD in the
east of Sydney, but I think as
Sydney's growing in the West of
Sydney, the demand for legal
services out in the West of
Sydney is is enormous and it
will only continue to grow.
So I'd encourage people to sort
of think outside the box and set
out if they're looking at
private practice or other forms
of legal practice to come out to
the West of Sydney, I'll.
I'll move on now.
To your time with the.
Supreme Court reflecting.
On it, could you describe what
it was like to work there?
I understand he worked for
Justice Hoban, who then went
along to become Chief Justice.
Of the chief judge a common.
Law.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Of the of the NSW Supreme Court.
How would you characterize the
personality and judicial
approach of of him?
And additionally, in your view,
what distinguishes a good lawyer
from perhaps a good judge?
Yeah.
So Justice Ivan was a wonderful
mentor, wonderful judge.
He had a tremendous capacity to
deal with volume of work and I
think probably the demand on
judges is under underrated in
terms of I mean they they have
such a a high volume of caseload
and they've got to get through a
lot of matters And he had a
tremendous ability to process
work to to make decisions and
make very good decisions and he
was a wonderful mentor to me as
a as a young law student he he
really took time out of his day
to to talk to me about the cases
and he gave real insights.
So that was a it was a fantastic
experience.
I I couldn't recommend working
for.
I mean it was just one year so
it was that one year after I'd
finished fifth year of.
So I was doing the College of
Law and he allowed me to take
time off to do the College of
Law which I needed to do.
So he was very accommodating and
so it was an excellent
transition from going from
university into private practice
and he was very kind to he was
my referee on my resume early on
in my career.
So it was fantastic, very
obliging wonderful and I kept in
contact with him and his
associate many years after his
after I'd left his employment so
and I went to his farewell a
couple of years ago when he
retired as a judge.
So I mean it was fantastic year.
I I really enjoyed it and I
highly recommend to to young to
law students it may be in your
4th, 5th year to to really look
at look at the Supreme Court.
There's also the federal court,
the High Court, they all need
tip Staffs and associates.
The District Court has
associates.
So there's a lot of opportunity
to work in the court system and
it's a really great way to
transition into lots of other
things.
About those, I suppose.
Yeah.
What?
What was what sort of?
Distinguishes, in your view, the
difference between a good lawyer
and a good judge.
So I mean a lawyer really has to
focus on the interests of their
client and advocating for the
interests of their client.
So that that's it's a different
way of looking at things that
the lawyer advocates represents,
protects the interests of their
client.
The judge, I think a good judge
is a good listener, has a great
ability to process work.
It's obviously preferness has to
come into things, giving reasons
for their decision, very, very
technically good at the law.
It's very essential for a judge.
So they are very different
roles.
I mean, they're both under the
umbrella of being a judge, but I
think they have a different role
in terms of, I mean obviously a
lawyer has to be able to deal
with the client in the way a
judge doesn't need to deal with
the client.
A good solicitor has a good
ability to communicate with
their client, but a judge has to
look at the overall way in which
justice is being administered
and and the different parties
and and how things are going to
operate and and give reasons for
their decision.
And so when?
You were?
Employed by Justice Hoban would
if you're a common I suppose
requirement for for working as a
tip stuff for a a judge's
associate is that you have to
have quite high academics.
Is is If am I wrong in in
considering that?
Yeah, I mean every every judge
makes their own decision about
who they want to have as their
associate or tip staff.
So sometimes I I mean I I can't
speak for every judge of every
court about how they would
approach, but I I think
academics is one part of being a
good employee of a judge.
But it's not the only thing
being just being able to deal
with people, being obviously
very mindful of confidentiality
that I mean you have to have a
lot of discretion where you're
dealing with legal matters, a
lot of care with treating
parties the same way.
I mean you can't as a someone
working for a judge who can't be
seen to be favouring one side
over the other.
So common sense, I think working
for a judge, common sense to be
able to present as having common
sense it's it's something pretty
basic but I think I mean a judge
needs to know that they're not
the person they've got is not
just a bookworm.
No, lots of cases.
That's.
I mean, that's probably being
very technically good at case
law.
That's probably not as important
as just having common sense,
being able to deal with people
and talk to people and being a
normal person.
Yeah, yeah, Having.
Other people's skills.
And so we'll take a step.
Away now from talking about your
time as as a as a tip, as a tip
staff, and we'll talk a little
bit about your private.
Practice.
What would you say is the sort
of bulk of the work that you do,
and why have you?
Why has it kept you so, so
interested for so long?
So we do litigation that's my
main umbrella type of area.
So I do commercial litigation,
deceased estate litigation and
we also do personal injury.
We do a bit of criminal law as
well.
So yeah, I, I enjoy litigation
and the other lawyers that I
have in my team also enjoy
litigation.
I think there is sort of two
types of lawyers that are the
ones that actually enjoy
litigation and the ones that are
more transactional type.
And I I think sometime in your
in your early career lawyers
need to decide which path
they're going to go down the
doing the contracts and
documenting things or the cut
and thrust of going to court and
negotiating and and and
litigation.
So yeah, so we we are a
litigation practice.
We don't do conveyancing.
We don't do family law.
Family law is a booming area,
but we don't do that.
But yeah, we do most areas of
litigation.
Yeah.
And so you find the work
personally very engaging.
I do, yeah.
I mean often people are are in
situations that they would
prefer not to be in.
So there's a lot of problem
solving skills that depending on
the situation, you want to get a
result for the client that is in
their interest that they might
want to get out of a problem
that they're stuck in and that
they're forced to be in.
And often it's very emotionally
driven time of their lives.
Most people don't like dealing
with lawyers, so there's a lot
of care that needs to be taken
about how people are approaching
things and and helping people
sort out their problems, their
business problems, their
personal problems.
So it is.
It's very interesting work.
It's rewarding.
Getting good results for people
is.
Rewarding and do you find
well-being in private practice?
I suppose you're you're really
exposed to the entire case as a
whole, whereas in a bit larger
law firm you're probably a bit
more.
Compartmentalised, you're.
Probably a bit more working on a
single part and you don't really
have a overall view of what's
occurring.
Do you find?
It that perhaps sometimes you
can get so engrossed in a matter
that perhaps you're, you know,
pulling late nights you're yeah,
working, yeah, very hard on.
On on the case.
How do you balance that, I
suppose, with sort of personal
aspects to your life?
Yeah, I I think just touching on
what you said in the beginning
of the question that I think the
big, the large law firms, they
have cases where they're very
all consuming and particularly
for junior lawyers that they
they can spend time like doing
what's called discovery.
So they'll be poring over
documents and they may not see
the whole case.
And so I be careful not to early
on in, in a legal career.
I mean it can be good working
for a large law firm, but the
downside can be that you're
you're sort of stuck in a very
narrow area of doing things and
and you don't see the whole
matter.
The advantage of small
practices, the cases tend to be
smaller and so you can you do
see the whole matter and there's
a real enjoyment I think in in
dealing with the matter from the
beginning to the end of it and
effectively at solving the
problem of the matter.
And it's about managing
workload, delegating things.
We have a team of staff here, so
we if things are getting a bit
overwhelming to get other people
involved in the matter and
there's enjoyment in doing that,
communicating and being part of
a team.
So I think it's a matter of
balancing things and working
through the problems.
Thank you for listening to the
Australian Law Student Podcast.
The following segment is
questions from the bench.
Here we ask our guests a set
series of questions designed for
you to get to know them better
and to get key advice to help
you on your journey.
Each week we also take a
question from you, our audience,
head over to our socials, and
send us a message to get your
question answered.
Thanks for listening.
Well, well, Steven, thank you so
much for sitting down with me
and we'll now.
Move on to.
Some rapid fire questions and we
ask these questions to all of
our guests to allow our
listeners to get to know the
person better and to have a sort
of more personal relationship.
So these are the fun ones.
Starting for the first one, what
was your favorite subject in law
school and and why?
I enjoyed jurisprudence, so that
was the first subject I did.
It was all about the philosophy
of law and I I found that really
good way of starting my law
degree, and I think it's so
important to understand what
underpins our legal system, the
values that underpin our legal
system.
So I enjoyed jurisprudence.
I feel like a.
There's a whole of law students
that perhaps look at legal
theory subjects with a sort of a
a level of distrust, or perhaps
they sort of feel a bit annoyed
that they just sort of have to
do it.
And would you say that approach
it with an open mind, you can
actually learn a lot?
From it absolutely.
I mean it's it's very
interesting once you get into
it, it's on the surface it might
seem boring but once you
actually start getting into the
detail of why, why we do things
the way we do things, it it has
a lot of practical benefits.
And it it I still think back to
my days doing jurisprudence over
nearly 25 years ago.
I think, I mean that was that
were good times and there's
still a lot of relevancy to to
what I do.
Moving on to the next question,
What's 1?
Habit you believe is.
Being pivotal to your success in
the legal field.
I think focusing on continuing
education, so legal education is
obviously very important.
Lawyers in NSW, we have to do at
least 10 hours, some have to do
20 hours of legal education
every year, but also doing
education in other areas, wider
reading, read the newspapers,
read in different areas so that
you you're constantly building
your level of knowledge.
It's it's so important.
And so can you name a book or a
movie that's been significant to
you and one you'd recommend to
students?
12 Angry Men is my one.
I found that fascinating and it
has a lot of insights into how
the legal, especially the
criminal legal system works.
So it's an old movie.
I think it's made in the 1960s,
but it's.
I think it's one of.
The highest rated movies I
think, and has been one of the
highest rated movies for for,
for years.
I think it has like something
like a 4.9, a lot of tomatoes
and IMDb.
So yeah, I remember watching
that, that when I was probably
in year 12, I think for an
English class.
And so yeah, it's a really
interesting movie.
I'm glad that I've watched it.
So yeah, I think I can remember
that as well I suppose.
Now moving on for students
aspiring to make an impact in
the world.
What skill or quality?
Do you believe is most important
for them to develop?
I think building relationships,
yeah.
Getting to know people, sitting
down with people, talking to
people that, I mean, it's so, so
important.
I mean, university is a lot
about reading and and studying.
But that old saying, it's not
what you know, it's who you know
it.
It has still a lot of relevancy
to the legal profession.
So building relationships, yeah.
Yeah.
And on.
A second last question, did you
always?
Envision yourself practising in
the field that.
You do.
And if not, what did you think
you'd do?
Perhaps at the start of law
school, or perhaps coming out of
high school or at different
junctures.
I did always think I probably
would end up a lawyer at school.
I liked going to sit in the back
of courts, maybe a bit boring,
but I liked what I liked
watching the theatre of law.
So and I actually think a lot of
university students should go to
go to court and just sit in the
back of a court and just if you
haven't done it, because I have
spoken to university students
who have never actually been to
court.
So yeah, I, I, I did think I I
would probably end up as a
lawyer.
And I I enjoy doing it.
And then I see myself, I mean,
I'm in my early 40s now.
I see myself being a lawyer the
rest of my career.
Did did you always?
Think that you'd you'd you'd
perhaps.
Focus in on private practice
though and and litigation when
you when you were early on.
I think it took a bit of time to
work that out.
I yeah, I didn't know that at at
university.
I sort of fell into it in a way.
You got interested in finance?
I think you were saying.
Yeah.
Before.
So yeah, I did.
No.
My third year at university, I
worked for a financial planning
firm.
But that was good.
I did that for a year.
I worked out during that year.
I didn't like it.
So I then worked in a law firm
in my 4th year.
So I Yeah, it encouraged people
to move around, try different
things.
Yeah, especially when you're
young.
And now to our last question,
what's the greatest piece of
advice you've ever received and
perhaps on who gave it to you?
I can't remember who gave it to
me but I the advice is don't
specialized too early.
So I think a lot of young
lawyers they want to become a
particular area and the danger
is that that particular area of
the law can become redundant.
I mean with AI and the the the
pace of change is so great that
I think it's good to get
experience in a whole bunch of
different areas and try your
hand at at what you might enjoy,
rather than going for the
glamour, the glamour role and
the big firm.
Maybe just try something, but
try a range of things so that
you're not too specialised too
early on in your legal career.
I suppose it's.
Important because I think a lot
of people want to have longevity
in their legal career.
And if they're going to do that,
then they can't.
And and they they they shouldn't
pick up something that they
don't really know what it's
like.
And if they choose to, if they
find out five, ten years later
down the track and they hate it.
Yeah, it, it it's very much
harder to change at that point
from the career in your career
than, yeah, earlier on.
So yeah.
Anyway, Steven, thank you so
much for joining.
With me today.
It's been great having you on
the podcast and I wish you all
the best for the next for the
over the year.
Thank you.
Thank you.