Transcript
Hello everyone and welcome back
to the Australian Law Student
Podcast.
I'm your host Oliver Hammond,
and on today's episode we have
something a little bit different
for everyone.
It's the second last episode of
season one for 2024 if you've
been counting, and So what a
season it's been.
And just before our grand finale
in which we have a very notable
guest, I thought it would be
good to sit down with my Co
founder Nick Hodgkinson and the
main host of the Law and four
podcast.
And I suppose go through the the
term and and sort of talk about
where the Australian law student
has is headed and perhaps
reflect a little bit on the
guests that we've had along the
way and and what you can expect
to see in the future.
So, Nick, how are you?
Good.
Thanks, Ali.
Thanks for having me on.
That's all right.
That's all right.
We're, yeah, we're definitely
heading for big things I think
for the rest of the year and
looking to plan for the for the
next year as well.
One of the things that I think
has been really notable at the
moment is the I think quality of
guests that we've been able to
have on.
I mean last year we trialled
with guests thankfully James
Dappajee most notably was was
able to come on and he was great
and also Tyson Manicolo, a bit
of a funny guest there.
But yeah, I mean this term we've
had a array of guests, 2
university professors, Joanne
Kinslaw and Bronwyn Morgan, a
lawyer in pro bono work at the
Redford legal Sam Lee Hall and
Wilcox graduate.
Obviously the Hall and Wilcox
sponsor was a big thing and it
was mainly one of our other team
members, Jason, who really
helped land that and Holly
Booker's been really good to us.
I think overall really have high
things to say about them.
So definitely check them out if
you have time.
It's a really great law firm.
I mean they welcomed us in into
their offices and and it was
lovely to sit down and Laurice
as is the the person I
interviewed was also really
lovely.
So that was good.
But yeah, I mean Nick and I went
to Redfern to interview Sam Lee
I think.
How did we get Sam Lee like,
like in terms of guest
acquisition, like with her, was
that just a LinkedIn?
Do you message on LinkedIn?
Yeah, I reached out to Sam on
LinkedIn, but she was lovely.
And that was a an insightful
discussion for both of us I
think.
Yeah, definitely.
I mean Redfern town hall.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was that
was, that was really interesting
as well.
Like I suppose with pro bono
it's very different environment,
different clients and yeah,
trekking out into Redfern in the
rain that one morning, I
remember.
So yeah, that like we we've
definitely had like a lot of
good memories on things.
Daphne Fong, it was a great law
student as well at UNSW.
Just reaching out to her to be
honest, I think that our our
range of guests differs and and
the person who brings in the
guest differs.
I mean you've brought in a
couple.
Sam.
There was talks about getting
the professor from UNSW.
What was his name?
Do you remember his name?
Professor from UNSW?
What?
Was his name.
He's a very smart guy, young
guy.
I can't remember.
No.
Yeah.
Well.
We reached out to him and I
think, but I was just so busy
and at the point in time like
because you we're doing
interviews with people obviously
at their chosen location.
You know, we don't have a
podcast gear or anything like
that.
So I'm transporting podcast
gear.
So yeah, I obviously can sort of
overlap.
But then we've also had people,
notable people in the legal
community.
Well, Mel's story she wrote
reached out to us.
She's very popular.
I think she's in Sydney sometime
in May.
So that might be teed up for the
next season.
Politicians as well.
Well, I mean that's just about
leveraging I suppose the
networks that we have.
Yeah.
I suppose Nick and I both being
Interstate, we've had to be very
sort of guerrilla user, sort of
guerrilla tactics in terms of
being able to build up our
network.
Yeah, I don't, I don't have any
family in Sydney and I don't
think Nick does.
And so definitely, like putting
yourself out there I think has
been a really big part of it and
just trying to find some sort of
community.
I think for myself, I befriended
a couple of older people I
suppose and also just applying
for jobs and stuff like that.
I mean my first job I, which
I've now since left to join a
bit of a bigger firm.
I still, I caught up with my old
boss and you know just sort of
had a bit of a mentor chat
around that.
So definitely like catching up.
I mean, I don't know.
You worked.
You actually work.
Interestingly though, you're
strange in that you worked in a
law firm before doing law, so
you're paralegal in Perth.
Yeah, so my undergraduate
degree, a Bachelor of Science.
I then worked full time as a
paralegal at a global law firm
for a year, moved to Sydney to
start the JD at New South,
continued with that firm for a
few months and then jumped ship
to a National Insurance firm.
I worked there for six months or
thereabouts and now I'm working
as a research assistant to a
barrister at the NSW Bar.
So some varied experience, but
good I think as a law student to
say yes always and don't be
afraid to try something that at
the first instance you might be
uncomfortable doing because you
know some.
Some really good advice given to
me was that in order to be a
good specialist you first need
to be a good generalist.
And so it's really important for
law students and law graduates
and and I suppose anyone
interested in building out their
practice to speak to as many
people as they can in as many
different practice groups and
stick with it even if you're not
enjoying it.
And that's something that we've
learnt through the podcast and
the business more generally I
think is you know sometimes the
opportunities that you enjoy the
most are those that at first you
you know we're rough and.
Yeah, you can't always expect, I
think to have it as all sunshine
and rainbows.
I mean, look, I think that's a,
that's obviously a fact that I
think that old cliche that
everyone's heard.
But in law especially, it's like
you really do.
It's an industry which is for
better, for worse still very
hierarchical.
And so you do you do have to do
your time in the trenches before
you can I suppose really get out
there and and and get the sort
of glittery glittery work.
But I think yeah I again like
putting yourself out there is is
probably the best piece of
advice.
I mean with the the Australian
law student more broadly, it's
like with us we've we've just
tried to get a broad array of
guests.
Some of them have been ex
lecturers that we've had.
Yeah, the politicians and stuff
like that.
That's just literally messaging
their electoral offices and
seeing what happens there.
And it's really interesting
because you get to be invited.
You'd be surprised how many
people are willing just to talk
to you or willing to just have a
chat.
I mean off I suppose the mic you
have a lot of conversations with
with guests just about their
day-to-day life and and in a way
it's it's really eye opening I
suppose and I hope that the
viewers have found eye opening
and yeah all all, sorry the
listeners have found it eye
opening because it's been really
I think beneficial from from my
self and just understanding the
broad array of law like yeah I
mean but obviously it is varied
like you do have professionals
that contradict each other.
I mean one of the I suppose more
notable instances of that was
interviewing Stephen McCauley, a
sort of general private practice
practitioner who sort of spoke
about how lawyers specialized
too young and and to stay
general and whatever else.
But another guest I remember
talked about how to really gain
expertise in your field you've
got to find the area that you
love and and really focus in on
it.
So I suppose in a way it's kind
of like there's no one approach
I think and and just find the
one that works for you.
If, and I don't know, like is
is, is there an approach do you
think that that that suits you
or do you think there's an
approach that that is like
universal or is it really that
like unique and subjective?
No, I don't think so.
I mean, I've got so many friends
in the JD program who have, you
know, started their studies in
law at really varied points in
their life.
One of my good friends, Kale,
moved over from Perth.
Like me, he's got three children
and you know studies full time
and and he's doing exceptionally
well in his studies.
There are other people who you
know don't take gap years and
start a combined undergraduate
law degree straight from high
school.
So I think that's one of the
good things about law school is
that of course you know, you you
get some really bright people
and some excellent and sometimes
controversial ideas going
around.
But there's there's no there's
no one-size-fits-all approach to
law school.
In the way that you approach it.
But I do think that I suppose a
trait that I've noticed is which
is fairly uniform across all
students is either curiosity or,
you know, extroversion.
And I think some of the best
friends that I've made at law
school, you know, have have
those traits in equal measure
and and they are, I suppose,
able to be learned.
But you don't win the lottery if
you don't buy a ticket.
And so that's, you know, us
messaging guests 10 times a week
and only getting a response
once.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, the
hit rate is through.
I mean this might occur later on
in the year, but I mean one of
our other teammates, Jason,
who's from you said we tried to
tee up injury with James Allsop,
the ex, the ex Federal court
judge.
Yeah, yeah, Chief Justice, Chief
office.
Yeah, yeah, Yeah.
Of the federal court, yeah.
And so, but obviously he's very
busy.
And then it was actually funnily
enough, Jason emailed him and
then from our teams e-mail and
then we just get the e-mail
back.
It's like a one line response
saying hi Jason, really super
busy talk later.
Like it was like really just
like like shortened to the
point.
But it was amazing though, just
to like even have the
opportunity I suppose to to know
people to get that e-mail and to
send it, you know, And lo and
behold, like I remember looking
through the AFR at work like a
month later and seeing James
also appointed to the High Court
in Hong Kong.
And I was like oh, that makes
sense why he's so busy.
He's planning for an
international movie.
I mean it's a very common thing
that Australian judges go and
become expats over in Hong Kong
because of the sort of common
law roots.
But yeah, and then there was a a
really well known barrister,
Alan Myers, who reached out to
and he was from Victoria.
I mean, obviously my Victorian
roots, if people know about
that.
I'm originally from Victoria and
so I had a personal connection
to him and I thought for sure
that personal connection was
going to hit.
But lo and behold, it turns out
he really doesn't like to do
media interviews.
So that just got completely
bounced back and I was a bit
disappointed obviously.
But you sort of get up and I
know Jason who's had a sort of
experience in this space, Jason,
one of our team members, he, he
sort of gave good advice.
You know, you you're going to
get knocked back a a couple
times and you just got to get
back on the horse.
And so that was really
interesting I suppose to look at
it from from that perspective as
well to just keep going and keep
going.
But I think it's also surprising
when you get a guest that you
didn't think you were going to.
I mean, the finale guest was
definitely fun that that goes
along with that.
And hopefully in Season 2 and
season three, we're having
guests that we're surprised that
we can even get on.
So that's that.
That's also an amazing part of
it.
Yeah.
And I think with our reception
more broadly, I mean talking
about some of the the numbers,
how, how, how have we gone
there.
I mean I know that from our
social media side of things with
our shorts the the team that we
have is, is quite small and so
and also I think there's
mistakes that have been made
along the way.
But we're we're constantly
adapting at the Australian
lawsuit.
We're getting better and we will
continue to get better.
I mean with the sort of more
short form content on TikTok and
Instagram it has been very
similar with the sort of clips
and stuff like that.
I know that we used to do like
memes and like rankings and that
sort of stuff.
Now part of that is obviously
difficult because you know the
the sheer number of, I mean
we're all juggling job work and
degrees and personal lives and
you know sport and you know all
this sort of stuff like all on
top of that.
So it can be really tricky to
have even to have this sort of,
yeah, this sort of platform, the
site you're running.
But I know with TikTok we've
just, I think we've just
surpassed over 2000 falls, which
is a really good achievement.
Instagram is sort of teetering
around the 1K mark, which is a
bit frustrating.
I mean the growth side of things
I think has definitely been a
bit stunted just by the
similarness of content.
And also, like, it's also like
all algorithmic.
Like, it's like there's
apparently certain secrets that
you've got to unlock with the
algorithm that I haven't paid
attention to.
But I randomly see people like,
apparently, like, things like
posting three times a week is
more optimal than five times a
week.
So rather than once a day,
you're posting it three times a
week that the algorithm likes
that.
So you know, there's, there's
all these sort of different
variables that go into play,
which is like, yeah, you're
probably not utilizing that as
much if you're not like someone
that's really invested, I
suppose, like myself into like
social media, sort of the back
end of social media and how
algorithms work and how to get
the most likes and comments and
engagement, that sort of stuff.
So I mean we had that real
explosion at the start I think,
but obviously things have have
have the sort of growth has sort
of slowed.
But I think that'll pick up
towards the middle and the end
of the year especially that
we're now I think managing
workflow a lot better.
And so the engagement in terms
of like our social media sort of
short form is really good.
But yeah, you you've basically
been the the caretaker of the
LinkedIn and the Linkedin's been
doing really well.
Yeah, it's it's been interesting
to see.
I I think of course Instagram
and TikTok more popular than
LinkedIn.
Law students need to you guys
need to get off TikTok and start
working on your midterm
assignments.
But no Linkedin's.
Linkedin's interesting.
You get this mix of
professionals and law students
who are putting themselves out
there looking for jobs.
And it's great because we can
track our engagement against law
societies against other pages.
I think generally speaking we've
left most of the law societies
in the dust in terms of our
engagement statistics.
So I think at one point we were
up 600% on the Sydney Uni Law
Society, which is just crazy for
a page that, you know, started
four months ago.
LinkedIn also really useful
because we can use it as a tool
for networking and arranging,
you know, coffee catch UPS and
lunches with people who we want
to speak to.
You do just, you know, have to
be careful with making sure that
you're, you know, gaming it
right, using the algorithm as
you would on Instagram and
Tiktok.
Yeah, yeah.
And that's the other thing is
like like each social media
platform we're on 4 on social
media.
We've got Spotify, LinkedIn,
Tiktok, Instagram.
All of them have different
algorithms.
I mean, like, look, I know like
social media influence and
stuff, like how to game it all
the time.
So I'm having a cry about the
algorithm.
But it is actually very hard to
keep track and remember like
okay.
So LinkedIn works best when
you're doing things like polls
and TikTok works best when
you're posting a lot and
Instagram works best when you're
posting not as frequently.
So obviously there's all these
sorts of different actors that
come into play.
I suppose we're managing that
social media side of things.
So that's definitely something
that, yeah, we've had to learn
and learn on the fly.
But no, it's been, I think
really like, I don't know, I'm
really proud of it.
I suppose the growth and the
amount of team worked with we've
had with LinkedIn and everything
else.
I mean, another thing that we've
been doing is employing like
interns.
So like people basically.
I mean we're not like on on
paper where like a company and
yes we have someone sponsor us
to pay for like and and they pay
for like our subscription cost.
But you know us as as
individuals do not make any
money whatsoever.
And so in fact it's the opposite
if we put our own personal,
personal savings stuff in it.
So in in terms of that, it's
like well, okay, how can we set
up a mutual relationship between
us where we can, I suppose have
a little bit of workload taken
off us and younger law students
first years can gain really
valuable experience.
So you know, I've got an intern,
I'm Richa, Richa, if you're
listening, you're doing doing
great.
This is great work.
So she helps me with things like
guests, the creating questions
for guests and doing BIOS and
sort of doing looking up on sort
of guest BIOS and that sort of
thing.
We've also got Hazel that does
sort of bit of social media
stuff and you know these people
that they work you know one hour
a week if even and they they
just add a little bit to us and
hopefully we're able to help
them.
And you know I think it's really
interesting to see that as well
to see to see that growth.
I mean usually I think these the
market in terms of law students
has all has been so dominated by
law firms in wanting that
paralegal job and that sort of
stuff.
But there's also such there's
such great experience elsewhere.
I mean like yes I think the
Australian law student brands
itself is sort of a bit of an
alternative to law societies.
But if you're, I suppose if
you're listening to us,
obviously get involved with us.
But if you have, well, I don't
know I suppose the people that
aren't listening to us, if
they're a part of the Law
Society, it's a great
opportunity I think to be a part
of in terms of volunteering and
and getting involved in that
sort of stuff.
So just like any experience you
know I I ran the social director
for our college, our residential
college that was great
experience.
So there's so many other great
experiences that you can get
that more friends look so
favorably upon in in when it
comes to it.
So yeah, like that's that.
That's been really I think.
Awesome.
We're having the little having
our little intern program as
well.
And it's kind of weird like you
went in for an interview for a
job and they talked to you
about, talked to you about like,
oh, they're employing like like
like managing interns and stuff
like that.
Like it is very rare I think for
any, any person really, not just
for law students, to have
managerial skills.
Now I say that like as if it's
like a really big thing.
Obviously it's like we conducted
like little interviews and that
sort of stuff, which is, which
was tricky, I suppose asking the
right questions and you feel,
definitely feel a bit weird
because it's like you're so used
to being on the other end of
being the employee employee
rather than the employer.
I suppose in this instance
you're just sort of vetting
people, like do they have, do
they understand what they're
going to get out of it and that
sort of stuff.
So yeah, I know that's been a
really interesting experience as
well.
In terms of being great, it's a
it's a privilege to be able to
interview and and take on the
interns.
I think because they have a lot
of license to contribute where
such a small platform and they
can really get out of it what
they put in.
So we've got 4 interns at the
moment, which is a little bit
alarming because six months ago
it was you and I working on this
in a residential college
bedroom.
And now there's four, four
partners, a corporate
sponsorship and four interns.
Yeah, yeah.
So that all came about really
quickly.
Yeah.
But yes, I when I was
interviewing with a firm, they
did ask me about the experience
that we've had with our interns.
And you forget, I think, because
we're all so busy, the skills
that we've developed during this
process, from posting the ad to
vetting candidates,
interviewing.
Of course, by that point you've
decided on the kind of person
you sure don't want to take on
as an intern.
Onboarding them, delegating work
to them, settling their work,
letting them post their work,
and then the whole cycle rinses
and repeats.
Of course, you're checking in
with the other partners about
you know if their interns are at
capacity or not, how the interns
can work together.
At the moment, Hazel's helping
me with planning a social event,
so that will be announced soon.
We're excited about that.
Because that'll be good that
yeah our I suppose we'll
actually looking to sort of do
in physical stuff like and that
that's definitely a big a big
process part of it.
Well, that's where we're going.
I think I'm in our community now
is fairly sizable, yeah.
Yeah.
So we're in a position where we
can start offer in person events
and you know I should think that
by the end of you know this,
this year at least we will have
had probably 2-2 events and
hopefully something with one of
our our partner firms.
But that's going to be a great
way for our members to start
leveraging the the community
more.
I think of course the past six
months we've been, we've been
online only and that'll be where
the rubber hits the road.
I think for us, because of
course we are, we operate on a
different model to the
conventional law societies.
Law students from any university
can become a member and access
our services.
And so I should think that you
know there there will be
naturally more opportunities for
law students to network at our
events.
We're in Sydney at the moment.
There's no reason to think that,
you know, we won't be expanding
to.
I would assume first it would be
Melbourne and and probably
Brisbane, Newcastle maybe, but
it it won't just be, you know,
Sydney uni law students are
confined to the events that the
Sydney Uni Law Society puts on.
I think that's a bit outdated.
Maybe that's just because we're
New South students, but we did
have to update the rankings.
Yeah.
Yeah, recently, which is
something that we might get
Jason to talk about.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean I suppose like to talking
about that shift as well.
It's just been real.
I mean just noticing that entire
thing.
It's just so it is it is very
surreal I suppose like there
are.
I mean yeah look obviously we
say as as New South students and
stuff like that but obviously we
have friends at different law
schools and I think it's it's
really good to really try and I
suppose breakdown the the
traditional society model of
only catering to your own
students.
I think when you look at it why
aren't we working together and
if the look, look I mean it it
it is hard because I suppose
with employers and and whatever
else employers will say that
like we'll obviously look at
different universities in
different ways.
But I mean like you said for
example very traditional
university that has a reputation
of academic excellence and and a
very robust education and
whatever else.
But I think more and more like,
yes, those those views and stuff
are still being held and
whatever else.
But more and more that's slowly
starting to I think a road where
people, you know, you go into
top law firms and you see a lot
more people from other Unis, a
lot more people and from from
Bora array of Unis, especially
in Sydney.
Like, yes, you got Interstate
people coming over and stuff
like that.
A lot more as well, which is a
bit a bit strange.
I went to a I went to an event
at a big law firm and yeah,
people from Canberra were there.
I was like, I completely forgot
that if you want to do like
corporate law in Canberra, you
probably coming up to Sydney,
shout out to all the Canberra
fans, we got an intern from
Canberra.
So, yeah, yeah, it's, it's good.
It's good.
I think to have that and just
having these in person events
like I don't know how we're
going to, I suppose manage that
in terms of other States and
whatever else.
I mean, look, we'll just play it
by ear and we'll just take a
look, look at it as
opportunities to present
themselves.
Yeah, But I think right now Nick
and I have a couple of years
left just yet in our law degree.
So we're still Australian law
students for the time being and
I suppose looking into the
future, yeah, we're obviously
looking on for for more people
to to take on and to and to
really contribute in some way,
shape or form and and truly make
this a platform that people can
use and people can use for the
long term.
You know there are several
predecessors I think we've done
like a little bit of I suppose
market research and looking at
stuff like that that there are
sort of old older sort of
Australian law student like
platforms I think.
But I think if we're able to
really focus on the younger
generations and and and pass it
on then that would be a really
good and amazing long standing
mark.
And yeah, I think for us as
well, it's just about broadening
everyone else's horizons.
You know with Daphne Fong that
she was able to put us in
contact with some writers from
the Lawyers Weekly, which is a
publication service probably.
I reckon lawyers probably read
the AFR the most and then
Lawyers week is probably up
there is probably like the
second or definitely top five I
think So, yeah, I mean they
sponsor all the law awards and
whatever else.
But yeah, I think with on that
note as well-being, able to sort
of potentially writing an
article for them, so potentially
contributing into the wider sort
of legal space as well I think
is just really, really awesome.
And so yeah, it's just been an
amazing journey thus far.
And I think looking into the
future, there are big things.
Yes, we've got these physical in
person events.
We've got growth on social media
and podcasting.
We've got yeah hopefully bigger
and better guests.
What we.
Yeah, we do we do have bigger
and better guests coming out.
Obviously not that's obviously
our guest this this season as
well.
It's just been amazing.
You know it can't be any can't
be any more grateful for their
contributions as well and being
able to sit down and ask
questions and and really gain a
a valuable understanding of how
the law works.
So yeah, I suppose looking into
the future there's there's great
things on the horizon.
So yeah.
Do you have anything else to
add, Nick, closing remarks?
Not other than keep your eyes
peeled for the last podcast
guest.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is a doozy.
It is an amazing podcast guest
with Hugh McDermott, the other
the well, probably just both
there, but I was going to say
with the Hugh McDermott, I was
invited very gratefully grateful
for that.
Invited to Parliament House in
NSW due to conduct an interview
there.
And let's just say with this
one, I was also invited back to
Parliament House and I had got
to sit in the lovely jubilee
room and interview a very, very
special guest.
So yeah, stay tuned for that
next week.
And yeah, thank you for
listening to a bit of a
different episode and yeah,
we'll see you later.
And so Nick, as I sign off with
most of my guests, thank you for
joining me and best of luck for
the rest of the.
Year.
Thanks, Ollie.