Transcript
Hello and welcome back to the
Australian Law Student podcast.
I'm your host Oliver Hammond,
and today I had the pleasure of
being joined by teal independent
Sally Stekel.
Before we get into the episode
though, our obligatory political
disclaimer.
At the Australian Law Student,
we strive to present a broad
array of views on law and
society as a whole.
We are by no means politically
affiliated and strive for
neutrality wherever we can.
So, without out of the way,
let's begin.
Before her political career,
Zali was an Olympian and
barrister, as well as a member
of the Olympic Arbitration
Board, specializing in sports
law.
She is currently the federal
member for Warringa, and in
today's episode, we explore her
journey from champion athlete to
her career in law and politics,
her legislative priorities, and
her vision for Australia's
future.
So without further ado, sit
back, relax and enjoy the show.
Hello and welcome to the
Australian Law Student Podcast.
I'm your host, Oliver Hammond.
Today I have a special guest
with me, Sally Steggle for Drill
P Thank you, Sally.
Thank you, Oliver.
So without further ado, I'll
start with my first question.
Sally, you're a former Winter
Olympic athlete and began your
professional journey as a
solicitor and then a barrister.
Reflecting on your political
career, what started the journey
into politics, and perhaps can
you share some anecdotes that
have shaped or even changed your
view on the law and its role in
society?
Yeah.
I mean, look, I guess it's a big
question.
I think if I maybe go back to
the start of why I studied law
in the 1st place.
I love debating at school.
So I had a probably romanticized
idea of what being a barrister
would be and what advocacy
looked like in the courts and
the idea that you could go in
there and really sort of fight
for A cause or for your rights.
And obviously at the end of my,
I did my skiing career and back
in those days, many of his
students won't be of the
generation to remember, but pre
Internet, pre all of that, I
studied by correspondence.
So I did my Bachelor of Arts in
media and communications, which
was the way I could do an arts
law degree, essentially doing
arts while I still travelled
around and skied.
And then once I retired after
the 2002 Winter Olympics, I
started my law degree through
the legal practitioners
Admission Board.
And I did that juggling part
time work.
I worked in solicitors practice
and the barristers chambers and
I had two kids, You know, I was
one of those students that
turned up at lectures on we for
weekend school with a baby and a
baby.
So it's pretty frightening idea.
But look, I was always really
attracted to the law and I think
advocacy more and litigation
more per SE.
I really liked, enjoyed, I guess
I compared even litigation to
nearly competing.
As an athlete, your preparation
is vital to the outcome, right?
You don't automatically control
the outcome like in sport
litigation.
You know the judge will find
their way.
Now the work you put in is
really important.
The, I think that maybe the
responsibility and the pressure
of being able to think, think on
your feet and having to adapt to
the situation also had those
similarities with sports.
So for me, I guess it was an
environment I was really
comfortable with.
There were some of the areas
that I was attracted to on top
of I guess liking debating.
You know, I used to give my ski
coaches a terrible time with
always being fairly opinionated
about what we were doing and
what the plan was.
So then when obviously I was at
the new, I was at the NSW Bar
for about 10 in years, I didn't
really practice the solicitor.
I went pretty much, I practiced
for about less than a year and
then went straight to being a
barrister, mainly because I'd
been working as a paralegal
during my law degree.
And so I had had a pretty close
view of both what barrister's
practice and solicitors sort of
law firm looked like.
And my dad was a suburban
solicitor.
So I had a big Fairview of that.
And I loved the advocacy of the
Bar, but I, I guess I felt
sometimes a little constrained
that when you're fighting or,
you know, litigation on behalf
of your client, I guess you're
helping one person at a time
versus politics is really
systems change because you're
really looking at changing the
law that is being applied.
And so then you're having that
opportunity to maybe make a
bigger difference.
And so I guess the why then get
into politics over the course of
my career as a barrister, loved
the work.
I mean, sometimes it's, you
know, it's incredibly
challenging.
I loved the responsibility of
the challenge of the day-to-day,
the, you know, the thrust of the
debate in court.
You know, it really brought back
a lot of memories of skiing and
competing in that sense of the
pressure of needing to get it
right.
And then obviously, you know,
when you get the wins, you're
feeling really satisfied and
then fairly frustrated when the
case doesn't go the way you you
think it should.
But I was, I guess I was
concerned of bigger systems
changes, you know, when it comes
to gender equity, when it comes
to policy areas.
And when I really looked to
politics, I saw that that was an
opportunity to address it in a
more systemic way.
I mean, as part of my career, I
guess I also had the chance to
mix sports law and I was an
arbitrator for the International
Court of Arbitration for Sports.
So I actually got a chance to go
to my 5th Olympic Games, to
Pyeongchang, to South Korea as
an arbitrator for Kaz.
And I was one of the three
international arbitrators that
got to rule on whether, for
example, Russia was allowed to
compete in those Olympics, which
was an incredible experience of
bringing together sport and law
and all of that.
So, yeah, look, it, it was
obviously I always loved the
advocacy.
But ultimately, when it came to
politics, I was really motivated
that I felt we really needed
better gender equity in
parliament.
More women needed to get into
politics.
I was very worried that our
politics and policies were
driven by, well, weren't driven
by merits sufficiently, like
they weren't driven by facts and
and expertise more out of maybe
vested interest and power and
ideology and so on, issues like
climate change or integrity or
fiscal discipline.
I found it really frustrating
that policies were not based on
sound expert evidence from what
I could say.
And I really wanted to change
that.
As a barrister, you have to rely
on the quality of the evidence
that you get on behalf of your
case, right?
So you really rely on your
expert opinions and evidence to
back in the, the main argument
you're making.
And so as a, as an advocate, I
was really used to relying on
people's expertise and really
deep diving into issues and
understanding that.
And I've really felt that was
lacking at political levels.
So as as an independent MP,
certainly I'm not an expert and
we have to cover so many
different policy areas, right?
So many that I have only, you
know, I don't have a deep
knowledge of, but I really see
my role in representing the
community is I need to go and
get, you know, the feedback or
get briefings by people who are
experts in those areas who can
genuinely tell me, is this a
good law?
Is this a good proposal?
What are the, you know, what,
what is the problem this law is
trying to solve?
Is this political?
Is this well consulted?
You know, is this good law?
And then sort of, I guess apply
a more, you know, like a
barrister style or advocate
style view on the proposed
legislation in, in, in
Parliament.
So that's a really interesting,
Yeah, I suppose that that yeah,
sort of evidence, comparing
evidence and I suppose expert
opinion in politics and and
being embarrassed, I suppose as
well.
Sort of a bit of a tangential
question.
Did you in getting into
politics, was that, was there a
sort of a moment where you sort
of thought, you're right, this
is what I'm gonna get into
politics?
It was it more of a sort of
dipping your toe in a little
bit, but a little bit by a
little bit and then sort of
found yourself OK, yes, now I'm
ready sort of to get in.
No.
Look, I would, I was guilty of
maybe I was an armchair critic,
really frustrated from the
sidelines at the status quo, but
too busy to do anything about
it.
You know, obviously after my
skiing career, getting into my
legal career, having young
family, you're busy, right?
But gradually there was that
sense of real frustration over
where the status quo was at.
And I think, you know, as a
professional woman, there was a
number of incidents that I would
say raised the bar of
frustration and that was, you
know, regardless of politics,
someone the way we treated the
first Australian female Prime
Minister Joy Gillard, and that
was very well represented in
recently in some documentaries.
You know, the misogynistic
treatment by the media was
really inappropriate and wrong.
And I, you know, that was sort
of grating as a professional
female.
Then I looked at the, you know,
the US election, President
Trump, when Trump was elected
against Hillary Clinton, again,
a very qualified person versus
less so qualified and that was
grating.
Then we saw the revolving door
of prime ministers when it came
to obviously Malcolm Turnbull
resigning the way Julie Bishop
was treated.
So for me there was that growing
grating frustration of I think
that a fairly misogynistic view
of Australian politics on top of
growing concern of particular
areas of issue like climate
change.
So obviously coming from a
winter sport in Australia,
fairly precarious right in terms
of and very reliant on
temperatures, having trained in
Europe on glaciers, seeing them
melt more and more every year.
And then as a parent with, you
know, looking at sort of our
responsibility to future
generations and just feeling a
real sense of we're not on
track.
And obviously, the previous
member for Warringah having
been, you know, Prime Minister
at the time of signing the Paris
Agreement and then very much
fluctuating and changing his
position and walking back his
commitment, for me, that was
really concerning.
And I felt like it was, it was
time for surely we could do, we
could do this differently.
And I guess as an individual
athlete, I'd never been afraid
of being out there on my own
and, you know, taking on the
responsibility and doing it.
And so for me it was a natural
fit to go into politics as an
independent because again, that
was on my own, the same way as I
had before.
And I suppose with your
background in sport as well, I
mean, there's a, there's
definitely a undercurrent idea
that when you're studying law,
when you're studying, I suppose
anything, it should consume your
sort of entire life.
And for a lot of people it does
some people give up their
hobbies in their sports and that
sort of thing.
I mean, you've, you've juggled
quite well.
I suppose these different, well,
I can't say it well, but I mean,
from the the results now I can
say say that it's obviously
juggled quite well.
Do you think that those sorts of
other areas have helped you?
I mean, you've mentioned a
little bit about about pressure
and how the pressure was sort of
the ability to handle pressure.
Yeah, well.
I think I think of skills,
especially when I would say when
speaking to students, I don't
think there's any wrong
decision, right?
Every piece of experience you
can gain along your professional
journey is going to be valuable
and it's going to add to what
you ultimately make of your
life.
And I, I'm a big believer in
there are no wrong decisions.
There are just choices that you
make and everything else will
flow from there.
And so for me, I think it was
really important professionally
to find, to evolve my career in
a way that allowed me to use all
of my skills.
And so I developed certain
skills as an athlete, right, in
terms of pressure, in terms of
communications media, those kind
of things.
Then as a, as a lawyer and as a
barrister, you develop other
skills, right?
You have to be very meticulous,
the hard work, the, the
preparation that goes into a
case, right?
You don't just get to a final
argument by accident.
You have to really drive the,
you know, the, the direction of
the litigation to the best that
you can towards making the you
want the key issue or the key
argument to be the one you at
the beginning identifies your
best chance of success.
And so, but at the same time, I
found as a barrister, it was a
little maybe sometimes a bit
narrow, a bit limiting.
There was no public, you know,
it's a fairly narrow profession.
It's still very led by
convention.
It's still a fairly patriarchal
environment, I would have to
say.
And I found that after, you
know, 10 years there, I was
looking for maybe a bit more
diversity, a bit more challenge,
something a bit different.
And that's where I found
politics was an incredibly good
combination of my two careers.
And the skills are developed in,
in the two, you know, it's sort
of your, your, your marketing,
your PR, you know, all those
aspects become really important
in politics because if you can't
convey the message, if you can't
communicate it to the community,
then it's like it never
happened, right?
So you have to be able to be a
good listener and a good
communicator.
And then I think be prepared to
do the hard work and dive deep
on the issues.
So it's, it's a, it's really
challenging, but but incredibly
interesting.
And I suppose in in line with
sort of politics and, and the
law and observations often
pointed out with politicians, I
suppose from perhaps people in
that armchair or people in the
media and that there's a large
number of lawyers that occupy
political positions.
I wanted to ask you, did you see
this as an issue or perhaps a
strength?
Should people with political
aspirations consider legal
training before entering the
political space?
Or perhaps is there room for
people of other occupations into
the political sphere?
Well, I think for our
representative democracy to
work, we need to represent
everyone in the community.
So we definitely need more
diversity when it comes from
backgrounds and you know, from
more migrant we need we need a
lot more representative.
It is not a representative I
would say sway at the moment and
professional experience becomes
part of that as well.
What's been interesting in
Australia is we've had this
evolution in the last, I'd say
15 to 20 years of the
professional politician where
young people passionate, which
is great, get into either sides
of politics and start off as
maybe study law, but then get
start off as advisors.
And I think in that sense the
study of law is useful because a
big part of an advisor's job is
going to be to analyse proposed
legislation, its impact, how
it's going to work and whether
you know, what should be done
with it.
So and then those kind of career
politicians have been advisers,
you pay your due and then you
maybe become an MP and then you
make your way to the front
bench.
And my concern with that pathway
is you haven't really developed
life skills or professional
experience outside of that very
narrow pathway, right?
Interpretation of experience.
And I think it's really
important to have business
experience, small business
experience.
So how else are you going to
understand the impact of laws
and taxes, for example, on the
community medical experience to
understand the decisions you're
making around health?
You know, obviously, you know,
the Departments of health and
the health minister, I think
community environment, so many
areas really need.
So all those professions benefit
from being there because then
the quality of the decisions
that will be made by government
and the qualities of the debate
in Parliament will be better by
having all that experience
reflected.
I mean, I think traditionally
you get a lot of people maybe
with armed forces experience as
well, because there's that sense
of duty, service, giving back to
the community.
So I mean, I think it's, it's a,
it's a tough one.
I think there's a space for some
career politicians.
I think traditionally the, our,
you know, our Westminster system
of democracy has been, you know,
you had a certain career, you
reached a certain level of
success and recognition in that
career, be it law, medicine or
whatever.
And then your way of giving back
to the community was to go into
politics to represent them,
right?
I think that's maybe the
Westminster traditional system.
And I think there's a there is
merit behind that system because
it means you have people of a
certain experience and maturity
getting into politics with the
intention of giving back and
doing good.
The problem with that system,
nevertheless, is the
generational representation,
right?
You want young people to also
get into politics.
The worst thing that happens is
when young people say don't
relate to politics.
It's got nothing to do with me.
You know, it's something quite
sort of removed because you
know, and I always say to young
people, especially young women,
if you're not at the table,
you're on the menu, right.
Politicians are making decisions
about laws every day that will
change, you know, impact your
life and and impact your range
of options, right.
So it's important to be
involved.
Everyone has that opportunity to
be involved through their vote.
It matters for me.
Part of the challenge is getting
people to re engage with the the
the responsibility that is being
able to vote in a democracy and
making sure you use it wisely.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, yeah, I suppose that,
yeah.
That's a really interesting
comment, I suppose on the the
relationship with career
politicians and I suppose
getting experience.
I know one of my friends, he
spoke to a politician once.
He was thinking about getting
into politics.
He's a bit older than me, but he
said he was talking to him and
he said if I'm looking to become
a politician, what's, what's
some advice you can give me?
He said, wait until you're 35 at
least you know that sort of
gaining life experience.
I think I think a lot of people
as well sort of perhaps a bit
turned off by that element as
well.
There's sort of a little bit of
a lack of trust, I think for
people who have been in the sort
of political system for for a
while.
But I mean, I suppose one, I
suppose counter argument that
that perhaps you could comment
on is, is, well, you obviously
you need to gain some level of
of sort of legal expertise and
sort of understanding of
legislation before entering into
politics.
So it's something obviously you
would see a legal, a legal
background is is advantageous
well.
I guess I, I could probably give
the insight this way.
I would say my job, my job is
nearly three jobs is how I would
break up my responsibilities.
And yes, I have the job which is
the more legalistic one in terms
of going to Canberra, looking at
legislation, voting on
legislation, participating in
the debate, right, raising
concerns, reflecting the
community.
So that's and, and obviously
having a legal training assists
in how you look at legislation
and analyse its impact.
The second aspect of the job is
a very community based job.
It's actually a communications
job and it's about and it's,
it's nearly a service industry
in the sense that I'm actually
here to assist my community in
accessing federal services.
So it's literally transactional
in the sense of NDIS, aged care
visas.
Part of my job and my team is to
make sure people can access
those services or if they've got
a problem, we can help them
solve it.
So it's literally being on the
ground helping people, going to
community events, going to, you
know, local organizations,
charities, and meeting with
people around their views and
ideas and opinions and their
feedback.
So it's that, you know,
constituent kind of sort of
process as a second job.
The third is you're actually a
small business.
You're like a small business
operator because I have to
operate A-Team.
I have to business operate the
electoral office for it to work
for my community.
And you, you have to do that in
a fairly professional way with,
I would say not a huge amount of
assistance.
Now I appreciate a party
politician probably gets more
head office assistance in how
they run it compared to me as an
independent, but you still have
quite a lot to do in managing
your small team and, and all of
that.
So looking at those 3 aspects of
the role and they're all pretty
full on.
And then you add, you know, you
got to deal with the media and
the comms and all of that side.
I think a level of experience
professionally is necessary, but
you could be coming from a
marketing or an advertising, you
know, you could come from other
backgrounds.
It's.
Ultimately it's, you know, I
think a a politician will only
be successful if they, you know,
if the community sees them as a
valid representative, you know,
they can be a voice for them,
especially as an independent.
Well, I suppose in relation to
that, what area of your life
have you felt the most pressure
in?
Was it as an Olympian, as a, as
a barrister, as a, as a
politician, or are they all
sorts of different forms of
pressure, do you think?
They're all different forms of
of pressure.
It's more that the winds are
more were easier to identify
before.
So for example, you know, in
sport you either you cross the
finish line and you've either
won or you've lost one.
It's really, it's really brutal.
Same.
I guess look with court cases as
well, in the sense of, you know,
your outcomes, there's a range
of outcomes that might be
satisfactory and you know, you
you get there or you don't.
Politics is cutthroat in that
each, you know, every three or
so years you have an election
and there's no second place,
right?
It's first pass.
You've just got to win.
And that, you know, if not,
you're out of a job.
So it's the most brutal job
interview you can ever do,
right, with your community every
three years.
But your wins in terms of the
work are a lot more nuanced.
Like you, you know, for us, it's
part of the it's, it's advocacy
around issues, putting them on
the agenda, getting them on the,
you know, national with the the
media.
It's negotiating amendments,
pushing the government through,
creating social license to get
the government to go to new
policy areas.
It's obviously, you know,
holding them to account when
they're failing to do that.
And we've seen a lot of that in
the last few years.
And also, you know, bringing
integrity and accountability
back in.
So, yeah, look, it's, it's in
terms of the pressure, I think
I, I guess I feel probably the
pressure the most now, Not in
the sense of a personal outcome
for me.
I'm not a career politician, you
know, I'm not trying to make my
way to the front bench.
This is not a career trajectory
move for me.
But I feel the response.
I do feel the responsibility
keenly when it comes to the
issues because ultimately, if I
can't, you know, my, my main
motivation for getting into
politics is to create a, you
know, ensure we have better
policy for the future for your
generation and your kids
generation and especially when
it comes to climate and
opportunities.
So ultimately now the win is if
we've moved the dial.
But the beauty of the beauty
about it is also, this is not a
race we can ever quit.
And every fraction of progress
is good progress.
You know, sometimes you'd want
bigger progress, but every
little bit matters.
And so I take, you know, that's.
So I'll never move into some
standard questions we ask all
our guests to get them to get to
know them a little bit better
with the first one.
What was your favorite subject
in law school and why?
Trouble remembering, gosh, that
was just, it was, it was a bit
of a blur at times.
I look, I did like contracts,
you know, I liked just I liked
the the, you know, the reasoning
and, and being really, you know,
Methodol, the methodology around
it.
I guess I quite enjoyed that.
I did also do copyright and
well, what was trade practices
at the time?
Consumer law now I quite enjoyed
that.
So yeah, they were probably the
areas I enjoyed the most.
Great.
Thanks so much.
Do you have a book or a movie
that's significant to you and
one you'd recommend to students?
Jeez, that's a tough one.
Look, I'm I'm I'm a big I'm a
bit of a soft touch for the
motivational stories and, you
know, like as an Olympian, as a
sports person, I like the, you
know, the come good stories.
So as a kid, I actually always,
you know, like the power of one
in terms of especially when I
had races or events where I
really challenge, you know, was
feeling daunted.
It's that, you know, remembering
to you can set a big goal, don't
let yourself be intimidated by
that goal.
Step away from it and then work
out baby steps how you get to
it.
So for me, that was a big part
of it.
Look, I'm a big fan of, you
know, the recent movie on RBG.
Obviously I thought, you know,
on the basis of sex, I thought
that was a great movie.
And obviously she was RBG was
such an incredibly inspiring
leader legally.
But obviously a lot of her
legacy being now at risk, which
is quite sad.
I suppose now moving on to our
final question, What's 1.
Habit, you believe, has been
pivotal to your success in the
legal field 1.
Habit.
One habit.
Look, I think you've got to back
yourself.
Like it's really easy to second
guess yourself and people you
know.
As soon as you let too much
doubt creep in, it becomes very
hard to be confident.
Huge part of success is being
able to sell it and even in
litigation in court, just being
able to meet the eye of the
judge and hold it regardless of
how strongly, you know, how
confident you felt about what
you you have to deliver it with
confidence, regardless of what
you're feeling on the inside.
It's a little bit the same in
politics.
You know, sometimes that can be
tough.
And I think for many or so, and
I, and I know sometimes students
really, you know, imposter
syndrome can be really tough for
people, especially where you're
in fields where you're, you
know, you might be expected to
know a lot.
And then if you feel like you're
not knowing as much as others,
whether or not you know that
people start to question
themselves.
So for me, it's always been, I
think being able to say to
myself, what's the worst that
can happen, right back yourself,
Failure is not gonna kill you.
Yeah.
So failure is, you know, it's
part of learning and you will
ultimately build from that to
success.
Yeah, that's what I learnt
through sport.
Mm hmm.
I think I learnt that through
yeah, by legal career and it's
definitely applicable to my
political career.
Well, Zoe, that's about the
amount of time we have for this
episode.
So thank you so much for joining
me today, and I wish you the
best of luck for the rest of the
year.
Thank you.