Teal Independent & Member For Warringah | Zali Steggal OAM

Hello and welcome back to the Australian Law Student podcast. I'm your host Oliver Hammond, and today I had the pleasure of being joined by teal independent Sally Stekel. Before we get into the episode though, our obligatory political disclaimer. At the Australian Law Student, we strive to present a broad array of views on law and society as a whole. We are by no means politically affiliated and strive for neutrality wherever we can. So, without out of the way, let's begin. Before her political career, Zali was an Olympian and barrister, as well as a member of the Olympic Arbitration Board, specializing in sports law. She is currently the federal member for Warringa, and in today's episode, we explore her journey from champion athlete to her career in law and politics, her legislative priorities, and her vision for Australia's future. So without further ado, sit back, relax and enjoy the show. Hello and welcome to the Australian Law Student Podcast. I'm your host, Oliver Hammond. Today I have a special guest with me, Sally Steggle for Drill P Thank you, Sally. Thank you, Oliver. So without further ado, I'll start with my first question. Sally, you're a former Winter Olympic athlete and began your professional journey as a solicitor and then a barrister. Reflecting on your political career, what started the journey into politics, and perhaps can you share some anecdotes that have shaped or even changed your view on the law and its role in society? Yeah. I mean, look, I guess it's a big question. I think if I maybe go back to the start of why I studied law in the 1st place. I love debating at school. So I had a probably romanticized idea of what being a barrister would be and what advocacy looked like in the courts and the idea that you could go in there and really sort of fight for A cause or for your rights. And obviously at the end of my, I did my skiing career and back in those days, many of his students won't be of the generation to remember, but pre Internet, pre all of that, I studied by correspondence. So I did my Bachelor of Arts in media and communications, which was the way I could do an arts law degree, essentially doing arts while I still travelled around and skied. And then once I retired after the 2002 Winter Olympics, I started my law degree through the legal practitioners Admission Board. And I did that juggling part time work. I worked in solicitors practice and the barristers chambers and I had two kids, You know, I was one of those students that turned up at lectures on we for weekend school with a baby and a baby. So it's pretty frightening idea. But look, I was always really attracted to the law and I think advocacy more and litigation more per SE. I really liked, enjoyed, I guess I compared even litigation to nearly competing. As an athlete, your preparation is vital to the outcome, right? You don't automatically control the outcome like in sport litigation. You know the judge will find their way. Now the work you put in is really important. The, I think that maybe the responsibility and the pressure of being able to think, think on your feet and having to adapt to the situation also had those similarities with sports. So for me, I guess it was an environment I was really comfortable with. There were some of the areas that I was attracted to on top of I guess liking debating. You know, I used to give my ski coaches a terrible time with always being fairly opinionated about what we were doing and what the plan was. So then when obviously I was at the new, I was at the NSW Bar for about 10 in years, I didn't really practice the solicitor. I went pretty much, I practiced for about less than a year and then went straight to being a barrister, mainly because I'd been working as a paralegal during my law degree. And so I had had a pretty close view of both what barrister's practice and solicitors sort of law firm looked like. And my dad was a suburban solicitor. So I had a big Fairview of that. And I loved the advocacy of the Bar, but I, I guess I felt sometimes a little constrained that when you're fighting or, you know, litigation on behalf of your client, I guess you're helping one person at a time versus politics is really systems change because you're really looking at changing the law that is being applied. And so then you're having that opportunity to maybe make a bigger difference. And so I guess the why then get into politics over the course of my career as a barrister, loved the work. I mean, sometimes it's, you know, it's incredibly challenging. I loved the responsibility of the challenge of the day-to-day, the, you know, the thrust of the debate in court. You know, it really brought back a lot of memories of skiing and competing in that sense of the pressure of needing to get it right. And then obviously, you know, when you get the wins, you're feeling really satisfied and then fairly frustrated when the case doesn't go the way you you think it should. But I was, I guess I was concerned of bigger systems changes, you know, when it comes to gender equity, when it comes to policy areas. And when I really looked to politics, I saw that that was an opportunity to address it in a more systemic way. I mean, as part of my career, I guess I also had the chance to mix sports law and I was an arbitrator for the International Court of Arbitration for Sports. So I actually got a chance to go to my 5th Olympic Games, to Pyeongchang, to South Korea as an arbitrator for Kaz. And I was one of the three international arbitrators that got to rule on whether, for example, Russia was allowed to compete in those Olympics, which was an incredible experience of bringing together sport and law and all of that. So, yeah, look, it, it was obviously I always loved the advocacy. But ultimately, when it came to politics, I was really motivated that I felt we really needed better gender equity in parliament. More women needed to get into politics. I was very worried that our politics and policies were driven by, well, weren't driven by merits sufficiently, like they weren't driven by facts and and expertise more out of maybe vested interest and power and ideology and so on, issues like climate change or integrity or fiscal discipline. I found it really frustrating that policies were not based on sound expert evidence from what I could say. And I really wanted to change that. As a barrister, you have to rely on the quality of the evidence that you get on behalf of your case, right? So you really rely on your expert opinions and evidence to back in the, the main argument you're making. And so as a, as an advocate, I was really used to relying on people's expertise and really deep diving into issues and understanding that. And I've really felt that was lacking at political levels. So as as an independent MP, certainly I'm not an expert and we have to cover so many different policy areas, right? So many that I have only, you know, I don't have a deep knowledge of, but I really see my role in representing the community is I need to go and get, you know, the feedback or get briefings by people who are experts in those areas who can genuinely tell me, is this a good law? Is this a good proposal? What are the, you know, what, what is the problem this law is trying to solve? Is this political? Is this well consulted? You know, is this good law? And then sort of, I guess apply a more, you know, like a barrister style or advocate style view on the proposed legislation in, in, in Parliament. So that's a really interesting, Yeah, I suppose that that yeah, sort of evidence, comparing evidence and I suppose expert opinion in politics and and being embarrassed, I suppose as well. Sort of a bit of a tangential question. Did you in getting into politics, was that, was there a sort of a moment where you sort of thought, you're right, this is what I'm gonna get into politics? It was it more of a sort of dipping your toe in a little bit, but a little bit by a little bit and then sort of found yourself OK, yes, now I'm ready sort of to get in. No. Look, I would, I was guilty of maybe I was an armchair critic, really frustrated from the sidelines at the status quo, but too busy to do anything about it. You know, obviously after my skiing career, getting into my legal career, having young family, you're busy, right? But gradually there was that sense of real frustration over where the status quo was at. And I think, you know, as a professional woman, there was a number of incidents that I would say raised the bar of frustration and that was, you know, regardless of politics, someone the way we treated the first Australian female Prime Minister Joy Gillard, and that was very well represented in recently in some documentaries. You know, the misogynistic treatment by the media was really inappropriate and wrong. And I, you know, that was sort of grating as a professional female. Then I looked at the, you know, the US election, President Trump, when Trump was elected against Hillary Clinton, again, a very qualified person versus less so qualified and that was grating. Then we saw the revolving door of prime ministers when it came to obviously Malcolm Turnbull resigning the way Julie Bishop was treated. So for me there was that growing grating frustration of I think that a fairly misogynistic view of Australian politics on top of growing concern of particular areas of issue like climate change. So obviously coming from a winter sport in Australia, fairly precarious right in terms of and very reliant on temperatures, having trained in Europe on glaciers, seeing them melt more and more every year. And then as a parent with, you know, looking at sort of our responsibility to future generations and just feeling a real sense of we're not on track. And obviously, the previous member for Warringah having been, you know, Prime Minister at the time of signing the Paris Agreement and then very much fluctuating and changing his position and walking back his commitment, for me, that was really concerning. And I felt like it was, it was time for surely we could do, we could do this differently. And I guess as an individual athlete, I'd never been afraid of being out there on my own and, you know, taking on the responsibility and doing it. And so for me it was a natural fit to go into politics as an independent because again, that was on my own, the same way as I had before. And I suppose with your background in sport as well, I mean, there's a, there's definitely a undercurrent idea that when you're studying law, when you're studying, I suppose anything, it should consume your sort of entire life. And for a lot of people it does some people give up their hobbies in their sports and that sort of thing. I mean, you've, you've juggled quite well. I suppose these different, well, I can't say it well, but I mean, from the the results now I can say say that it's obviously juggled quite well. Do you think that those sorts of other areas have helped you? I mean, you've mentioned a little bit about about pressure and how the pressure was sort of the ability to handle pressure. Yeah, well. I think I think of skills, especially when I would say when speaking to students, I don't think there's any wrong decision, right? Every piece of experience you can gain along your professional journey is going to be valuable and it's going to add to what you ultimately make of your life. And I, I'm a big believer in there are no wrong decisions. There are just choices that you make and everything else will flow from there. And so for me, I think it was really important professionally to find, to evolve my career in a way that allowed me to use all of my skills. And so I developed certain skills as an athlete, right, in terms of pressure, in terms of communications media, those kind of things. Then as a, as a lawyer and as a barrister, you develop other skills, right? You have to be very meticulous, the hard work, the, the preparation that goes into a case, right? You don't just get to a final argument by accident. You have to really drive the, you know, the, the direction of the litigation to the best that you can towards making the you want the key issue or the key argument to be the one you at the beginning identifies your best chance of success. And so, but at the same time, I found as a barrister, it was a little maybe sometimes a bit narrow, a bit limiting. There was no public, you know, it's a fairly narrow profession. It's still very led by convention. It's still a fairly patriarchal environment, I would have to say. And I found that after, you know, 10 years there, I was looking for maybe a bit more diversity, a bit more challenge, something a bit different. And that's where I found politics was an incredibly good combination of my two careers. And the skills are developed in, in the two, you know, it's sort of your, your, your marketing, your PR, you know, all those aspects become really important in politics because if you can't convey the message, if you can't communicate it to the community, then it's like it never happened, right? So you have to be able to be a good listener and a good communicator. And then I think be prepared to do the hard work and dive deep on the issues. So it's, it's a, it's really challenging, but but incredibly interesting. And I suppose in in line with sort of politics and, and the law and observations often pointed out with politicians, I suppose from perhaps people in that armchair or people in the media and that there's a large number of lawyers that occupy political positions. I wanted to ask you, did you see this as an issue or perhaps a strength? Should people with political aspirations consider legal training before entering the political space? Or perhaps is there room for people of other occupations into the political sphere? Well, I think for our representative democracy to work, we need to represent everyone in the community. So we definitely need more diversity when it comes from backgrounds and you know, from more migrant we need we need a lot more representative. It is not a representative I would say sway at the moment and professional experience becomes part of that as well. What's been interesting in Australia is we've had this evolution in the last, I'd say 15 to 20 years of the professional politician where young people passionate, which is great, get into either sides of politics and start off as maybe study law, but then get start off as advisors. And I think in that sense the study of law is useful because a big part of an advisor's job is going to be to analyse proposed legislation, its impact, how it's going to work and whether you know, what should be done with it. So and then those kind of career politicians have been advisers, you pay your due and then you maybe become an MP and then you make your way to the front bench. And my concern with that pathway is you haven't really developed life skills or professional experience outside of that very narrow pathway, right? Interpretation of experience. And I think it's really important to have business experience, small business experience. So how else are you going to understand the impact of laws and taxes, for example, on the community medical experience to understand the decisions you're making around health? You know, obviously, you know, the Departments of health and the health minister, I think community environment, so many areas really need. So all those professions benefit from being there because then the quality of the decisions that will be made by government and the qualities of the debate in Parliament will be better by having all that experience reflected. I mean, I think traditionally you get a lot of people maybe with armed forces experience as well, because there's that sense of duty, service, giving back to the community. So I mean, I think it's, it's a, it's a tough one. I think there's a space for some career politicians. I think traditionally the, our, you know, our Westminster system of democracy has been, you know, you had a certain career, you reached a certain level of success and recognition in that career, be it law, medicine or whatever. And then your way of giving back to the community was to go into politics to represent them, right? I think that's maybe the Westminster traditional system. And I think there's a there is merit behind that system because it means you have people of a certain experience and maturity getting into politics with the intention of giving back and doing good. The problem with that system, nevertheless, is the generational representation, right? You want young people to also get into politics. The worst thing that happens is when young people say don't relate to politics. It's got nothing to do with me. You know, it's something quite sort of removed because you know, and I always say to young people, especially young women, if you're not at the table, you're on the menu, right. Politicians are making decisions about laws every day that will change, you know, impact your life and and impact your range of options, right. So it's important to be involved. Everyone has that opportunity to be involved through their vote. It matters for me. Part of the challenge is getting people to re engage with the the the responsibility that is being able to vote in a democracy and making sure you use it wisely. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, I suppose that, yeah. That's a really interesting comment, I suppose on the the relationship with career politicians and I suppose getting experience. I know one of my friends, he spoke to a politician once. He was thinking about getting into politics. He's a bit older than me, but he said he was talking to him and he said if I'm looking to become a politician, what's, what's some advice you can give me? He said, wait until you're 35 at least you know that sort of gaining life experience. I think I think a lot of people as well sort of perhaps a bit turned off by that element as well. There's sort of a little bit of a lack of trust, I think for people who have been in the sort of political system for for a while. But I mean, I suppose one, I suppose counter argument that that perhaps you could comment on is, is, well, you obviously you need to gain some level of of sort of legal expertise and sort of understanding of legislation before entering into politics. So it's something obviously you would see a legal, a legal background is is advantageous well. I guess I, I could probably give the insight this way. I would say my job, my job is nearly three jobs is how I would break up my responsibilities. And yes, I have the job which is the more legalistic one in terms of going to Canberra, looking at legislation, voting on legislation, participating in the debate, right, raising concerns, reflecting the community. So that's and, and obviously having a legal training assists in how you look at legislation and analyse its impact. The second aspect of the job is a very community based job. It's actually a communications job and it's about and it's, it's nearly a service industry in the sense that I'm actually here to assist my community in accessing federal services. So it's literally transactional in the sense of NDIS, aged care visas. Part of my job and my team is to make sure people can access those services or if they've got a problem, we can help them solve it. So it's literally being on the ground helping people, going to community events, going to, you know, local organizations, charities, and meeting with people around their views and ideas and opinions and their feedback. So it's that, you know, constituent kind of sort of process as a second job. The third is you're actually a small business. You're like a small business operator because I have to operate A-Team. I have to business operate the electoral office for it to work for my community. And you, you have to do that in a fairly professional way with, I would say not a huge amount of assistance. Now I appreciate a party politician probably gets more head office assistance in how they run it compared to me as an independent, but you still have quite a lot to do in managing your small team and, and all of that. So looking at those 3 aspects of the role and they're all pretty full on. And then you add, you know, you got to deal with the media and the comms and all of that side. I think a level of experience professionally is necessary, but you could be coming from a marketing or an advertising, you know, you could come from other backgrounds. It's. Ultimately it's, you know, I think a a politician will only be successful if they, you know, if the community sees them as a valid representative, you know, they can be a voice for them, especially as an independent. Well, I suppose in relation to that, what area of your life have you felt the most pressure in? Was it as an Olympian, as a, as a barrister, as a, as a politician, or are they all sorts of different forms of pressure, do you think? They're all different forms of of pressure. It's more that the winds are more were easier to identify before. So for example, you know, in sport you either you cross the finish line and you've either won or you've lost one. It's really, it's really brutal. Same. I guess look with court cases as well, in the sense of, you know, your outcomes, there's a range of outcomes that might be satisfactory and you know, you you get there or you don't. Politics is cutthroat in that each, you know, every three or so years you have an election and there's no second place, right? It's first pass. You've just got to win. And that, you know, if not, you're out of a job. So it's the most brutal job interview you can ever do, right, with your community every three years. But your wins in terms of the work are a lot more nuanced. Like you, you know, for us, it's part of the it's, it's advocacy around issues, putting them on the agenda, getting them on the, you know, national with the the media. It's negotiating amendments, pushing the government through, creating social license to get the government to go to new policy areas. It's obviously, you know, holding them to account when they're failing to do that. And we've seen a lot of that in the last few years. And also, you know, bringing integrity and accountability back in. So, yeah, look, it's, it's in terms of the pressure, I think I, I guess I feel probably the pressure the most now, Not in the sense of a personal outcome for me. I'm not a career politician, you know, I'm not trying to make my way to the front bench. This is not a career trajectory move for me. But I feel the response. I do feel the responsibility keenly when it comes to the issues because ultimately, if I can't, you know, my, my main motivation for getting into politics is to create a, you know, ensure we have better policy for the future for your generation and your kids generation and especially when it comes to climate and opportunities. So ultimately now the win is if we've moved the dial. But the beauty of the beauty about it is also, this is not a race we can ever quit. And every fraction of progress is good progress. You know, sometimes you'd want bigger progress, but every little bit matters. And so I take, you know, that's. So I'll never move into some standard questions we ask all our guests to get them to get to know them a little bit better with the first one. What was your favorite subject in law school and why? Trouble remembering, gosh, that was just, it was, it was a bit of a blur at times. I look, I did like contracts, you know, I liked just I liked the the, you know, the reasoning and, and being really, you know, Methodol, the methodology around it. I guess I quite enjoyed that. I did also do copyright and well, what was trade practices at the time? Consumer law now I quite enjoyed that. So yeah, they were probably the areas I enjoyed the most. Great. Thanks so much. Do you have a book or a movie that's significant to you and one you'd recommend to students? Jeez, that's a tough one. Look, I'm I'm I'm a big I'm a bit of a soft touch for the motivational stories and, you know, like as an Olympian, as a sports person, I like the, you know, the come good stories. So as a kid, I actually always, you know, like the power of one in terms of especially when I had races or events where I really challenge, you know, was feeling daunted. It's that, you know, remembering to you can set a big goal, don't let yourself be intimidated by that goal. Step away from it and then work out baby steps how you get to it. So for me, that was a big part of it. Look, I'm a big fan of, you know, the recent movie on RBG. Obviously I thought, you know, on the basis of sex, I thought that was a great movie. And obviously she was RBG was such an incredibly inspiring leader legally. But obviously a lot of her legacy being now at risk, which is quite sad. I suppose now moving on to our final question, What's 1. Habit, you believe, has been pivotal to your success in the legal field 1. Habit. One habit. Look, I think you've got to back yourself. Like it's really easy to second guess yourself and people you know. As soon as you let too much doubt creep in, it becomes very hard to be confident. Huge part of success is being able to sell it and even in litigation in court, just being able to meet the eye of the judge and hold it regardless of how strongly, you know, how confident you felt about what you you have to deliver it with confidence, regardless of what you're feeling on the inside. It's a little bit the same in politics. You know, sometimes that can be tough. And I think for many or so, and I, and I know sometimes students really, you know, imposter syndrome can be really tough for people, especially where you're in fields where you're, you know, you might be expected to know a lot. And then if you feel like you're not knowing as much as others, whether or not you know that people start to question themselves. So for me, it's always been, I think being able to say to myself, what's the worst that can happen, right back yourself, Failure is not gonna kill you. Yeah. So failure is, you know, it's part of learning and you will ultimately build from that to success. Yeah, that's what I learnt through sport. Mm hmm. I think I learnt that through yeah, by legal career and it's definitely applicable to my political career. Well, Zoe, that's about the amount of time we have for this episode. So thank you so much for joining me today, and I wish you the best of luck for the rest of the year. Thank you.