Transcript
Hello everyone and welcome back
to the Australian Law Student
Podcast.
I'm your host Oliver Hammond and
in today's episode I had the
pleasure of sitting down with
the Chief Commissioner of the
NSW Independent Commission
Against Corruption, the
Honourable John Hazastragos.
The Chief Commissioner has had
one of the most varied and
impactful careers in public law
in NSW.
He has served as a Commonwealth
DPP lawyer, a barrister, deputy
Mayor, Attorney General, a judge
of the.
District Court.
And now leads the state's most
important integrity body.
We spoke about what drew him
into public service, how his
current role as Chief
Commissioner compares with the
many offices he's previously
held.
And he answers our rapid fire
questions, providing helpful
advice.
Whether you're curious about
careers beyond commercial law or
interested in inner workings of
one of Australia's most
important anti corruption
institutions, this is a
conversation you don't want to
miss.
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Head to gradiq.com dot AU and
apply now and make sure to tell
them that you listen to the
Australian Law Student.
Thanks to Grad IQ for supporting
the podcast.
Chief Commissioner One of the
most distinctive aspects of your
career is the remarkable breadth
of your experience.
Having served as a judge,
Attorney General, Deputy Mayor,
a Commonwealth DPP lawyer,
barrister and now Chief
Commissioner of the NSW
Independent Commission Against
Corruption.
It's clear that private practice
wasn't for you and ultimately
you chose to focus your career
on the public sector.
What drew you to what you do to
the public sector?
And what about that path has
captured your interests and
sustained your commitment for
all this time?
Well, I did do a substantial
amount of work in the private
sector as well.
I was a barrister for quite a
number of years and I was also a
solicitor in private practice
before I went to the DPP.
But it is true in the latter
aspects of my career there's
been a greater focus on public
service.
And I think the distinctive
feature of public services is
capacity to be able to affect a
difference on a broad group of
people, much more so than
litigation that you might get it
as a private practitioner.
So that's the aspect of which I
find particularly rewarding.
Yeah, sure.
And I suppose stepping through
your your career, what was your
time like as a, as a judge you
decided to make that move, I
understand earlier on in your
career than than some of the the
other changes.
Well, I've been in politics of
Parliament until 2011 when I
resigned my seat and then I left
to have a bit of a break, but
also to take on some other
roles.
I was teaching at the University
of Technology and Faculty of
Law, and I also went on to
consult for a short time in
private practice and brush up on
my skills before I returned to
the bar exactly 1 year, I think,
after I left.
And then I left Parliament days
and then I became a member of
this training Crime Commission
as it was then known, now the
Australian Criminal Intelligence
Commission as an examiner.
So I worked there for a little
while whilst I was at the
private bar and then I became a
judge in 2014.
But just prior to that, I'd been
asked by the Premier of the day,
Mike Baird, to undertake a
review of the Bail Act, which I
did, and I continued that on to
some extent after I became a
judge.
To answer your question about
what my time as a judge was
like, it was one of my
satisfying jobs I had.
I enjoyed the collegiality of
the court.
The work was varied.
It was hard work, but it was
deeply rewarding in a
professional sense.
It gave me an opportunity to
look at law in a different
position from an advocate where
you're trying to progress a case
on behalf of a client or an
individual, however an
individual grievance or matter
of that nature.
So I found being a judge a
situation where you sort of had
to hop off the fence and and
sorry, hop on the fence rather
than hop off the fence is
probably a better way of
describing it and and look at
things from a different lens.
Yeah.
Were there any cases during your
time as a barrister or as a
judge that were formative to
your career, or ones that stand
out?
Look, very early on in my career
I was very fortunate to have
worked on some disputed election
cases.
The last Court of Disputed
Returns case which was done in
NSW, I appeared in along with
some other members of the of the
bar.
That was particularly rewarding.
It did result in a by election
which resulted in a hung
parliament, so I suppose some
might view it as having
contributed to instability in
state administration.
But be that as it may, I did a
number of other cases in the
Court of Disputed Returns, both
at state level but also at a
federal level in the High Court.
They were informative and they
were very interesting cases.
I then branched in and did a lot
of tort law later on in my
career.
I was doing a lot of dust
diseases work in the in the
tribunal, which was nearly
established at that time.
And then I eventually went into
politics in 1999.
Part of the time that I was at
the bar, I was also a counsellor
at Canterbury Council.
So I had that exposure.
And then after I went into
politics, I was actually chair
of the Commission of the
committee, sorry, the
Independent Commission Against
Corruption, along with another
range of other responsibilities.
And four years after that I was
appointed to the ministry and
was in the ministry for eight
years before I went on to do
other things.
And your decision to switch into
politics, what was the reasoning
behind that?
What?
What still led?
You to Well, it was interesting.
I as a very young person, I grew
up in Redfern and my brother and
I were close friends with a
family in Redfern who's father
to whom was the local mayor.
And so we befriended them and we
got to have discussions with
them about different issues and
I developed an interest in
politics.
I do recall that at a very young
age, the Whitlam government was
elected in 1972.
They're not having been a Labour
government at that point for 23
years.
And the three years of that
government was an interesting
period and one that I looked at
very carefully.
It resulted in a lot of
litigation, and I followed a lot
of that litigation because I
found that quite interesting and
constitutionally quite
fascinating.
Cases like Kuwata and Pajoki
Peterson, for example, which was
the High Court decision which
effectively said that the
Commonwealth could not only
enter into treaties but actually
could enforce those treaties
regardless of the fact that they
might otherwise interfere with
state rights, came out of that
period of government.
And so I developed a real
interest arising from that
period.
There are other things that
developed in that period.
The Family Law Act was enacted,
a range of other things.
So I became quite interested in
law and politics, but I was
firmly of the view that I needed
to do something other than
politics as a prelude, although
I did have an interest in one
day perhaps participating.
You there's the there's often a
bit of distaste look upon career
politicians.
However, some say that there are
there benefits.
Did you say that, would you say?
That I never wanted to be a
career.
Yeah, yeah.
So would you say that your
experience in law helped you in
at your time as a politician?
From my perspective it did, but
some of my colleagues might have
found me too puristic if I told
them that there were things I
shouldn't do or couldn't do,
particularly during the time
that I was attorney general.
But I think there is a benefit
of people who have had
experience in the law at a
practical level going into
politics.
I think NSW is fortunate.
There's a number of very
experienced lawyers who have
gone on to serve in public
positions, including the current
leader of the opposition,
attorney general, shadow
attorney general, and there's a
few people on the backbench as
well.
So I think that the contribution
that they can make to public
life benefits from the
experience that they've had.
Do you do?
You find.
That certain barristers are more
political than others?
I just wonder.
Barristers are obviously great
advocates in their own right
usually, and so to make the
change from being a barrister to
becoming a politician seems like
a very natural fit.
I just wonder, is there perhaps
a key trade of difference
between key traits of difference
between barristers that go on to
be politicians and ones that
don't?
There's others who have studied
that concept much, much more
detail than I have.
I don't know that I would
stereotype anyone in that sort
of straitjacket.
I mean, people are people like
that.
They all differ.
I think the one contribution
that lawyers can make to a
political career is an
understanding of the importance
of institutions and preserving
those institutions and the
integrity of those institutions.
I think that's fundamental.
I think the other aspect is
understanding the rule of law.
People who come from backgrounds
that aren't the same as mine
have different perspectives when
they enter into public life,
particularly people from
business backgrounds or
organizational party roles.
But all of those can make a
contribution provided that
people listen to each other and
able to learn from each other.
And I I found the cabinet
process on many occasions very
interesting, listening to
perspectives of people who had
come from backgrounds other than
mine, as I'm sure they would
have benefited from hearing my
perspective.
Yeah, yeah.
Thank you so much for sharing
with the your your answers to
those questions.
I'll go ahead in order to try to
ask.
Thank.
You you're now Chief
Commissioner of ICAC.
How does this role differ from
previous ones that you've had,
and in what ways has it felt
similar or drawn on similar
skills from your previous ones?
Well, the Commission is an
organization.
We're not.
When you're a judge, for
example, you're, you're
basically hearing a case and the
parties are presenting the
evidence according to the rules
and, and you have to determine
the outcome of, of that
particular piece of litigation.
We're an investigative agency
and on a relatively small
proportion of our staff are
lawyers.
We have 12 in our legal team out
of 164 employees.
So the majority of our employees
are not lawyers or at least not
working as lawyers.
A large portion of them are
investigators.
There's we have a big component
of corruption prevention and
education staff.
We also have an assessments
team.
We have some very specialized
skills amongst our
investigators, including in
areas such as digital forensics,
forensic accounting and so on.
So it's a highly specialized
agency, much broader than just
persons with legal backgrounds.
And the work of the Chief
Commissioner is different to a
judge, I suppose, in the sense
that judges are presented with
evidence.
We have to amass the evidence
and like if it goes to a public
inquiry, investigative findings
relevant to the to the material
we've uncovered and presented
and subject of course to the
submissions which are made by
the relevant party.
So it is different in that
sense.
There is some analogy, however,
to some of the other work that I
have done.
I was for a period of time on
the Australian Crime Commission,
now the Australian Criminal
Intelligence Commission, and
that was an investigative body,
somewhat analogous to the ICIC,
although different because here
at the ICIC we're focused on the
public sector and persons who
interact with the public sector.
Whereas the Australian Criminal
Intelligence Commission has a
very broad remit in terms of
criminal investigation.
Having said that, we do
disseminate information such as
the Australian Criminal
Intelligence Commission does to
agencies and so it has that
analogy as well.
So there are, I suppose,
contrasts and differences.
I think the thing that appeals
to me about this position is it
combines my skills, my
experience and my values into a
job which I find very rewarding.
Thank you.
I'll now move on to some rapid
fire questions that we ask all
of our guests.
I'll start off with the first
one.
What was your favorite subject
in law school and and why?
Look, I enjoyed administrative
law in those days.
We called it public law, yes.
And I found it a a really
interesting subject.
It dealt with government,
government decision making, and
it's the closest subject that I
found that provides an
opportunity for law students to
understand the different arms of
government working together.
I'm sure there's others as well,
but it's the one that most
appealed to me that is the the
judiciary, the executives and
the legislature.
So.
There's a a thing they are
called an administrative lawyer.
There's someone that specializes
in that.
I understand that this is a
relatively newer phenomenon.
Would you classify yourself as
an administrative lawyer or or
someone that?
What do you think about that
that?
More generally, well, I've done
some administrative law.
I'd like to think I've done some
other things as well.
Look, one of the things that
I've found this is just a
personal approach to the study
of law and something that I used
to encourage my students to do
is to think much more broadly
than in silos.
I think the silo thinking can be
very restraining.
And I, I do see a lot of lawyers
who specialize in particular
areas and I think there is
benefit from having a, a broader
outreach of the law.
There are principles of law
which cross fertilize and I've
always tried to be as broad as
possible.
It's not possible in in every
area.
I don't profess to be an expert
in family law, for example, or a
specialist in that area by any
means.
But I I do think there are
benefits in being a person who's
able to draw upon principles in
different areas of the law and
particularly as an advocate, I
found that quite useful.
I think the other thing is that
a lot of students these days
I've found are really interested
in the topic of human rights.
I found administrative law a
very strong human rights related
subject.
We don't.
They never taught human rights
as a subject at law school when
I was there, but I think it's
closely related in many ways.
I used to tell my students that
if you're really interested in
human rights, rather than
studying it as a as a subject of
its own, you might find it more
beneficial to understand
principles of administrative law
along with principles of
practice and procedure, the
rules of evidence, statutory
interpretation.
These are the sorts of things
that can give you the capacity
to be able to assert people's
human rights in a in a really
concrete way, rather than just
learning about the concepts.
I do recall another judge
telling me that when cases were
being presented, many of the
practitioners knew the theory,
knew the understanding of what
human rights was like, but
couldn't practically put the
case in a way that would which
would draw appeal and
persuasion.
And I think those fundamentals
are very important, and I hope
that our law skills continue to
emphasize them moving forward.
Thank you so much for that
insight.
What's 1 habit you believe has
been pivotal to your success in
the legal field?
Oh, there's many habits that I
had.
I'm not sure they're all good
ones.
Hard work is obviously very
important.
Listening is a very good skill I
think to have, particularly as a
judge.
You have to be prepared to
listen.
I think if I look back on the
days where courts had a
different approach to advocacy
than they have today, I think
when we're much more, much more.
So do I find that judges these
days are good listeners.
And I think that's important.
I think if you try and dominate
the proceedings and get involved
too much in the in the fray, so
to speak, you'll lose
objectivity.
And these are two skills.
I think at a personal level, I
think it's very important for
lawyers to have a life outside
of the law.
I think you have to have a
balance in what you do, and you
have to have an understanding of
how the world operates.
The good thing these days is a
lot of degrees in law
accompanied by degrees in other
areas, so people do study other
arts or economics or science or
something else.
I think that's important.
Do you think that the shift
towards an occupation which has
more work life balance is a
positive shift?
I do think it's important.
I think it's particularly
important aspect which is
allowed a broader group of
people to be able to come to the
law.
I mean in my early days in
practice, it was a very male
dominated profession and
certainly the judiciary was
overwhelmingly dominated by
males.
That's a dramatic shift and
being able to embrace
technology, being able to
provide assistance to people, to
be able to maintain a life, a
work life balance, I think is
very important.
Thank you.
Can you name a book or a movie
that's significant to you and
one you'd recommend to students?
Look, I'm a big reader of legal
biographies and I've read a lot
of them.
Well, Denning's the final
chapter, I think.
Well, since I've read it is a
great read.
I really encourage people to to
read it.
I've read others.
There's a book that's been done
on Francis Forbes by the former
president of the Court of
Appeal, Keith Mason.
Is is an excellent book to read.
I I just read an enormous amount
of legal biographies.
I found them.
I'm reading at the moment the
biography of the former US
Attorney General in the first
Trump administration, and I'm
finding that a really good rate.
His name escapes me.
It's funny that you mentioned
that almost all of the, the, the
judges and, and the really,
really successful boys that
we've spoken to almost always
say that they read a lot of
legal biographies.
And I think that there might be
a common denominator.
Yeah, look, it's while again
since I read it, but I did read
a lot of the biographies of some
of the early High Court judges.
Yes, but so Samuel Griffiths,
bearing in mind that all of the
High Court when it was first
established were all former
politicians, yes yeah, he then
went on to become judges and all
of them were advocates.
I found those really quite
interesting and, and, and
contrasting it to the way things
would develop if similar
scenarios occurred today.
A lot of things are very
different and we've moved on,
but they're interesting.
Yeah, and fascinating.
Absolutely.
I also I found the intersection
with the the members of the
military or ex members of the
military.
Then I think Chief Justice
Latham was a an actor with
someone in the army who came
through.
And I thought that was certainly
interesting because it would be
quite rare today, I imagine, for
that sort of transition.
So, yeah, again, I think there's
a common denominator there
amongst our legal biography.
So thanks so much for that.
I'll now move on to the last
question.
What's the greatest piece of
advice you've ever received?
Well, my late father always said
to me something which I'm sure
didn't come from him, must have
come from someone else.
But he did say to me that if
you, if you pick a job which
involves you doing something
that you love, you'll never work
a day in your life.
And it's stuck with me all my
life.
And I think it's been an
extraordinary ride for me.
I've had such a very journey in
the law.
I never would have planned it
this way, but Laurie is an
occupation which leads you in
many different directions.
And I've just been very
fortunate that I've had those
opportunities and that I'm
working now in the latter
aspects of my career in an
organization where I feel that a
lot of those skills are being
brought together in a hopefully
positive way.
Yeah.
Well, thank you so much, Chief
Commissioner, for sharing your
impressive journey with us.
That's all the time we have.
Thank you so much and I wish you
best of luck for the rest.
Of the year.
You're welcome.
Thank you.
Are you a law student applying
for clerkships this year?
You're not alone.
Get free access to Grad IQ's Law
Clerkship Toolkit, containing
detailed firm profiles,
clerkship lists, and CV and
cover letter templates.
Want to go further?
The Grad IQ Academy pairs you
one-on-one with mentors who've
got offers from Linklaters,
Allen's and Wyden case.
You'll get tailored CV feedback,
mock interviews, and advanced
networking and commercial
awareness prep.
The best part?
You only pay if you land an
offer.
Head to gradiq.com dot AU and
apply now and make sure to tell
them that you listen to the
Australian Law Student.
Thanks to Grad IQ for supporting
the podcast.