Transcript
Hello and welcome back to the
Australian Law Student Podcast.
I'm your host, Oliver Hammond,
and in today's episode I had the
pleasure of speaking with Dane
Liu.
Dane is an extraordinary
individual who's recently
returned from Oxford and is
currently a tutor at the
University of Sydney.
At Oxford, he completed what is
often considered the most
challenging law degree in the
Western world, the Bachelor of
Civil Law or BCL.
Dane not only earned a
prestigious scholarship to
pursue this, but he also
distinguished himself by placing
second in his graduating cohort
at Oxford.
During our conversation, Dane
offers valuable insights into
his academic journey, shares
thoughts on the law, and
provides practical tips for
anyone aspiring to undertake the
BCL.
We also delve into the
challenges he has faced along
the way and explore his
motivations that have driven him
to his success.
Just to preface as well, we
apologize for the slight audio
glitch after the 13th minute.
However, this is certainly a
discussion you don't want to
miss.
So without further ado, sit
back, relax and enjoy the
podcast.
I'll start off with my first
question, Diane.
BCL is a highly respected
qualification that attracts top
legal minds from around the
globe.
In 2024, you're awarded for your
efforts having the second best
performance in the course.
Could you take me through your
academic journey and tell me
what motivated you to pursue the
BCL?
I suppose.
So I always knew when I was
going through high school I
wanted to do something involving
politics or involving law and I
got, I was very lucky to get the
opportunity after the HSC to get
to go do a law degree at the
University of Sydney.
So did that combined with
economics and for a number of
years I was actually doing quite
well in economics.
I thought I really liked
economics and I ended up doing
honours in economics and that
was during the COVID years.
But I think when I was doing
economics I realized that that
was not entirely for me, that
whilst I enjoyed many aspects of
it, I've still felt that my area
of interest was really in the
law.
So I continued my law degree and
then did honours in that as well
as I was doing my law degree in
that second-half.
I basically did some work at the
NSW Crown Solicitor's Office, so
I worked as a paralegal there
and then I was a summer clerk at
Herbert Smith Freeholds HSF and
that was really, really fun
seeing how the law works in
practice.
And then after that I went and
decided to do honours in law.
I was supervised by a fantastic
supervisor in Professor Emerata
and Toomey and I did it on an
area of constitutional, which is
one that I really, really enjoy.
Professor Toomey really taught
me the ropes in terms of how to
think deeper, how to think
richer, how to think more
critically about the law and
where it is and where it should
be going or where it is going.
And I felt like that kind of
gave me a really good step up to
go, like I now want to go and
specialized or think deeper or
richer in this area.
So basically what happened is
that towards the end of my
undergraduate LLB, I was looking
for masters opportunities.
I didn't think I was going to
get into Oxford, Cambridge.
I'd heard of like students who'd
come from my undergraduate
university, you said, who had
done really, really well and had
managed to get places at those
universities.
I was also a bit more interested
in America at the time because
they have a quite interesting
constitutional or jurisprudence
they've got that has massively
exploded in a number of years
with some really high profile
major constitutional cases out
of the Supreme Court of the
United States.
But I've put in a number of
applications in for masters
opportunities internationally
and I was very, very lucky to be
given a place at Oxford.
And from there it was a matter
of picking between my options
and I decided that I thought
Oxford would be the best place
to go.
It has a reputation of being the
basic, has a reputation of being
the hardest law degree in the
common law world.
I thought it'd be great to take
on a challenge.
Motivation for choosing that or
was there sort of other factors?
Did you get accepted into other
programs perhaps even in in
America?
I mean, just thinking about it,
yeah, you're right that the
American sort of education has
has really come to light.
I think something that stands
out to me is that Stephen, the
current High Court judge of
justice of Australia, he's, he
was educated at Harvard.
And so, yeah, I mean, what sort
of goes into sort of the
considerations around choosing
your sort of the program?
Yeah.
So yes, well, Chief Justice
Kagler went to Harvard and he's
and then Justice Edelman on the
High Court of Australia went to
Oxford for the default.
I guess a major consideration
that you don't actually think of
immediately is about cost
because these programs when you
go overseas, you're actually an
international student and, and
the costs are quite, it was
actually quite a shock to me.
So, you know, in Australia as a
domestic student, you don't
really think so much about
money.
You know, you can just put it on
hex, you just press a few
buttons and you don't have to
think about it until you earn
over the particular threshold.
And then you're, oh, I'll start
paying stuff back.
But how it works in those
international universities is
that unless you have some kind
of scholarship or funding that
comes through, you're actually
kind of, you're often required
to pay upfront what is quite a,
a really, really significant
amount of money.
Kind of what informed me about
where to go was not just, you
know, where would I be able to
do the kind of subjects I want
to do.
I was at that point actually
thinking I didn't want to just
do constitutional law, public
law.
I wanted to also do a bit of
commercial law as well.
And that's also because I, after
I graduated, I had a fantastic
experience working with Justice
Hammerschlag, the Chief Judge in
equity at the Supreme Court of
NSW, who for many years was the
head of the commercial list and
has a very strong commercial law
background.
And working with him was just
Absolutely Fabulous.
But it also made me realize, you
know, maybe I can actually try
different areas of law.
I shouldn't pigeonhole myself
into an area of law so quickly.
So Oxford having a really strong
reputation in commercial law,
one of those big subjects being
commercial remedies, which I did
end up taking.
And as well as the fact that I
had managed to get what was
quite a lucrative scholarship in
the Peter Cameron Sydney Oxford
scholarship.
That was one that was awarded to
UCID students who take on the
BCLI.
Just thought these things all
kind of came together and but
Oxford BCL kind of became the
right option for me.
Yeah, yeah.
I think there's also a little
that sounds like there's a level
of pragmatism, I think in
relation to these sorts of
programs.
I suppose focusing a little bit
more on the details of perhaps
people who would like to do the
BCL.
Let's start off with some of the
prerequisites.
What's your academic transcript
looking like in order to sort of
be offered a place at one of
these institutions?
What's your, I suppose, are
there certain subjects that they
look at perhaps more in depth?
I mean, you also mentioned, I
suppose perhaps your
relationship with supervisors
and intruders and that's that
sort of thing.
Is that also important in terms
of academic references focusing
the academic prerequisites?
Yeah.
So I guess now that I've
actually kind of been to Oxford,
kind of seen it.
Of course, I think Oxford that
they take about in the BCL, I
think about 100 students a year
and that comes from all common
law countries.
So it's not just 100 from
Australia, it's about only about
maybe 20 to 25 from Australia.
Then they've got to take people
from from the UK, people from
Ireland, people from India,
Pakistan, New Zealand, Canada,
Hong Kong, Singapore, South
Africa, everywhere around the
world.
Basically where there's where
the common law system is, they
can apply for to the BCL.
So it's extremely competitive
and you need a really, really
strong transcript.
But often people make, I feel
like when people will speak to
me or when people ask me about
these things, they kind of make
assumptions about what my
transcript looks like.
And they're like, and they're
like, Dang, is it true that you
only have HDS?
And I'm like, no, that's not
true.
And that's, and that's really
not true.
I have my fair share of credits
and I have passes on my
transcript as well.
But really what they're, I guess
they're looking for is making
sure you're ranked high in the
cohort.
So I mean, I don't know, I guess
like every university has like a
different way of doing things.
So you said as a WAM system,
other universities do like AGPA,
some give like letters like ABCD
or a plus or a star or whatever.
So really I guess what you're
kind of doing when you're
applying as an international
student is you're really trying
to show you're in the upper
ranges of your cohort.
So, so ideally your rank would
be something that'd be quite
high relative to other students
that you graduate with.
And then the other one that I
think is also extremely
important, particularly for
Oxford, are your references.
So for the Oxford BCL, you need
to submit 3 references and they
prefer if they are all academic
references, which is often a
good hit.
Whenever I speak to students who
are still in uni.
It's actually a really important
time now to actually think
about, you know, making sure
you're building relationships
with professors, getting to know
them, speaking up in Class A
little bit so that later when
you ask, ask them, Hey, can I,
can you please be my reference?
They'll have, they'll have
something interesting to say
about you.
So references are really, really
key in, in the BCL and they and
they make quite a difference.
Really, your reference should be
saying whether you can manage a
heavy workload, whether you can
think critically, whether you
can engage with different
viewpoints and things like.
That yeah, OK, OK.
And I suppose moving on in
relation in terms of the
application process, I mean,
you, you mentioned previously
that there's, there's an element
of a personal statement.
What are you sort of including
in that and the sort of reasons
that you want to do the BCLI
mean?
I imagine you probably can't
just write something like, you
know, I want to do the BCL
because I think Oxford's cool or
something like that.
So what's the sort of process
behind that?
Yeah.
So Oxford from memory revise
A500 word personal statement.
And I think the guidance is that
for the BCL, the personal
statement is kind of a bit more
secondary.
So you dismiss your CV, you just
submit a writing sample of 2000
words, you've got your three
references that are there.
And then your personal statement
is just kind of something that
comes at like, you know, it's
kind of there and looked at
maybe when they're like just
doing the final selections, like
deciding whether, but whether
you get a full offer or you're
on the reserve list, whether
you're on the reserve list or if
you've been unsuccessful.
So I think when they're like
doing final decisions, they
might look a bit more of a
personal statement, but really
the focus on the other
statements and documents that
you've got to put in.
And I think the really key thing
with the personal statement, I
mean, I guess I can kind of just
tell you what I did.
I put on there that I wanted to
do, to do the BCL because I felt
like there weren't many
opportunities to do electives at
USID.
So USID is, I think until I
think, I think they're currently
undergoing some changes at the
moment with respect to the
curriculum.
But one of the things with USID
is that they had like the least
number of electives compared to
any other law school in the
country.
So I think that we, we had
someone did work this out and
they, and they, and they, and
they showed it.
So I said, OK, I guess I kind of
wanted to, to do some electives
so I can specialized a little
bit more in certain areas.
I was also interested in working
with the constitutional law and
admin law faculty at Oxford.
And what had happened was that
two years before I applied,
there was a major constitutional
law decision called Miller,
which was about a bit of a weird
power, prerogative power, called
the power to prorogue the
Parliament.
And it was about whether Boris
Johnson legally had acted
lawfully when he gave advice to
prorogue the Parliament for what
was an extended period of time,
for a long period of time
immediately before Brexit was
about to occur, when Parliament
was still looking carefully and
scrutinizing those
constitutional changes.
And there was quite a
proliferation of academic work
that came out of that space.
That was very interesting to me.
And I said I really wanted to go
do that.
And I guess the last thing I
said was something to say that I
would find it interesting to
look at things from a
comparative perspective.
And that was a great thing that
I realized at Oxford because you
bring you really are bringing
people from many, many different
common law countries.
And on top of that, there's the
Magista Urus or MJA, where they
bring people from a civil law
background.
So you often get students from
from mainland Europe and they
bring a different perspective as
well.
So particularly some of the
courses that I was able to sit
in on or go to, you say, people
bring in completely different
perspectives on all kinds of
things, particularly on even on
aspects of administrative law
and constitutional law, many
differences in human rights and
equality law, which I got to sit
in a few classes for.
So that all kind of makes the
cohort richer.
It makes the discussions more
interesting and I think it makes
a degree one that is quite
attractive.
I.
Suppose you also mentioned a
little bit about costs.
Before speaking on that, is
there some numbers that you can
give in relation to the cost?
And then also, I suppose with
the scholarship that you also
mentioned, what's the, what's
the sort of time that people
need to be start, start to think
about scholarship scholarships
and, and, and what are some
notable scholarships that people
can go for?
Yes.
So, so basically the cost is
quite exorbitant.
It cost, I think it costs this
year 45,000 lbs for an
international student's tuition
fee, which when you put that in
Australian dollars at the moment
is about 90,000 Australian
dollars, which is just a really,
really gigantic sum.
I was also living in college and
I was I guess enjoying Oxford
life and I found that that cost
about another 25,000 Australian
dollars including travel.
So the whole year was, you know,
it it, it quite quickly got to
somewhere over 110 thousand
$110,000 Australian dollars.
So it's a really, really big
thing.
And I I didn't come from a
particularly wealthy family, so
I kind of had to look for
scholarships and funding.
There are some other Australian
specific scholarships such as
the Monash Scholarship and the
Ramsey scholarships, which are
not Oxford tailored but but do
support international
postgraduate studies.
And there's quite often a BCL
student who goes on there at my
University of the Peter Cameron
Sydney Oxford Scholarship, which
gave 60,000 Australian dollars
and was incredibly helpful.
And then on top of that, there
are a number of others within
the colleges and the law faculty
at Oxford.
So the colleges also have a pool
of funding, and the law faculty
also allocates funding to
students from there.
Mm hmm.
Well, and so with the college
system over there, did you find
that a much more different
academic experience I think to
Sydney?
Oh, very, very different.
Yeah.
I I was actually quite surprised
at how colleges operate.
So they're actually, they
operate a bit like houses within
like Hong.
Yes.
So like it, it, it basically
your college is like every, so
every staff member, every
academic, every student must be
a member of a college.
And your college provides, can
provide, often provides you with
accommodation and there's a
dining hall where you go dine
with people.
They also have what's called
common rooms and there's the JCR
or junior common room for
undergraduate students.
If you're ABCL, you're usually
part of what's called an MCR, a
middle common room where you're
with other graduate students.
And, and it's really through
your college that they organize
lots of social events, sorts of
parties, lots of all kinds of
ways to kind of connect and have
fun.
So you actually, there's
actually, I guess a bit of a
second community.
And it was great actually with
this college community because
sometimes you're balancing ideas
at corridors as you're running,
as you're at night or in the
afternoon.
You're also talking to one
another.
And it also encourages you to
speak to people who don't do the
same degree as you.
So in my in my college, I got to
meet with people who were doing
medicine, who were doing
science, who were doing
archaeology, who were doing all
kinds of things that were
probably more interesting than
laws.
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I can only imagine, I
suppose, the, the, the studious
nature of, of somewhere like
Oxford, like again, one of those
institutions that's so I suppose
established and has that
academic culture.
Is that something that you felt
as well over there?
Definitely.
I think there is definitely a
difference between how we
operate in Australia with
teaching law and how Oxford
operates for teaching law.
So just give you some examples,
two that come to mind straight
away at when I was at the
University of Sydney, almost all
of my assessments for at least
all my priestly 11 and most of
my subjects were assessed by
problem questions.
So you know, you had the whole
kind of course assessed and two
or three problem questions with
issues from all over the course
scattered in a problem question.
That was not the case at Oxford.
In Oxford, often you would do
say 15 topics for the BCL and
then in the exam there would be
8 questions and then you kind of
have to choose three.
And they were assessed in
essays.
So what that kind of encouraged
you to do was it really
encouraged you to specialized in
certain things so you could
strategically not do everything
and you just choose the ones
you're actually interested in
and to revise for exams.
That was something that.
Wasn't.
Sydney, yeah, Sydney, you just
had to be across all the
content, really know all the
issues or potential issues that
could come up in a problem
question, question.
And another way, I think it
teaches very differently between
the BCL and my time during the
LLB in Sydney was that in the
BCL there are no lectures.
Hmm.
Well, and you're done really
very much by seminars where
you're kind of given a reading
list, you kind of are expected
to really prepare and read ahead
in class.
And you go there and you have a
debate and some of my favorite
classes where we would go in
and, and, and the academic
leading the session would say,
all right, we've got, you know,
case X and now who agrees with
it, who disagrees with it?
And then you have a bit of a
discussion and a debate and the
academics join in and there is a
really robust discussion.
And then on top of that,
tutorials are significantly
smaller.
So high tutorials where there
were only name one other person
with an academic for an hour and
these were really small
tutorials for you to prepare an
essay in advance.
And you go there, you speak
about your essay, you defend
your essay, and then you get to
ask the academic with some
questions.
So it was really, really
interesting, a very, very
different experience, very
different to what I had in my
undergrad.
I can only imagine then we're
we're approaching the end of the
podcast.
And So what that means is that
we ask our standard questions
that we ask all our guests for
our listeners to get to know you
a bit better on a personal
level.
So I'll start off with the first
question.
What was your favourite subject
in law school, whether it be at
Sydney or during the BCL and and
why?
I actually would say my favorite
subject in law school, which
some people won't say to the
subject, was really doing
research.
So my honours thesis for my
undergrad and my dissertation
for the BCL, I, I really love
this idea of where I got to
choose my own question and then
and then really just work
through it and realizing that I
chose a really hard question and
she shows it an easier question.
But, but really getting having
that time working one-on-one
with an academic and thinking
really deep into the law with
the different angles and things.
It's just, it's the idea of
having the time to do it and
then putting together a really
what was a 12,000 word piece of
work, one that I was really,
really proud of at the end.
That's great.
That's great.
Secondly, do you have a book or
a movie that's significant to
you and one you'd recommend to
students?
Oh, I, I, I do I I, it would.
One of the movies that I thought
was most moving to watch was
Lincoln.
Which was about President
Abraham Lincoln and his actions
during the Civil War and the
passage of the 13th Amendment to
abolish slavery in America.
That was a really moving movie
The first time I watched it.
And then subsequent times I've
watched it, I've actually been
looking and identifying a lot of
political tactics and thinking a
lot about what Abraham Lincoln
did to bring people together.
Remembering that to change the
Constitution in America, you
need a 2/3 majority in both
houses of Congress and you.
And that was certainly not
something that is easy to do by
any stretch of the time, by any
stretch, either today or back
then.
Where, yeah, I imagine that that
that that life I suppose is, is
something that I think a lot of
people perhaps don't get to
reflect as much I think in
Australia.
So that's a great, great
suggestion.
Moving on to the last question,
what's 1 habit you believe has
been pivotal to your success in
the legal field?
It, I, I think it has, it has
probably been my diary.
So I, I guess you might say I'm
a bit traditional.
I have a hard copy diary.
Yeah.
And I, I, I've, I've
experimented with like my
calendar app and everything and
it never works.
But I am very, very particular
with my diary.
When I do get busy, I use that
diary to really plan out my day.
Yeah.
And there's something about
writing it out, you know, when
you're changing it, putting a
line through it, substituting
things in it, and you're
actually able to see like quite
an evil.
Yes, Yeah.
And then taking notes at the end
of the day about what I thought,
what I did, what was good, what
was bad.
And it was interesting because
when I was again, doing my
research for my faces and my
dissertation, I would often
sometimes go look back and like,
oh, I had that idea from like
two months ago and be like, oh,
OK, great.
Absolutely.
I forgot about that.
So.
So yeah, that's been a good
habit.
It's good to write something.
Is that a skill that you
developed over time, or was that
something that you can instantly
do during high school or when
you?
Developed this year six teacher
and just all do it and I
Remember Me made on like this is
so silly you know we would yeah
six but I did it in year six and
then my school my high school
gave us free Diaries from year
seven or year 12 and we actually
really used it particularly in
years 10/11/12 and then I just
got into a habit and now I have
to use.
It.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So yeah, I would be here on time
if I.
Didn't well, no, that's great.
That's great.
Thank you so much.
Well, Diane, that's about all
the time we have for today.
So thank you so much for joining
me today and I wish you all the
best for the rest of the year.
Thank you so much, so much.
Thank you.