Tips from an Award Winning Law Student | Daphne Fong

Hello and welcome to the Australian Law Student Podcast. I'm your host Oliver Hammond and in today's episode I was joined by Stella law student Daphne Fong. When reaching out to Daphne it was apparent that her passion for law is something that really drives her. She was recognized for this formally winning the Women in Law Law Student of the Year award in 2023. Still in fourth year, Daphne has authored and co-authored articles in the Lawyers Weekly and is currently a paralegal at Mark Lawyers, a law firm which stands out for its novel approach to the legal profession. In the episode, Daphne shares how she spearheaded the firm's social media presence, and I discuss with her more broadly the balance that needs to be struck with professionalism and the evolution that social media brings. She also shares her wisdom on how balancing law school with a wide variety of extracurriculars is very important. So without further ado, sit back, relax and enjoy the show. Hello everyone and with me today I have Daphne Fong. Thank you, Daphne for joining with me. Thank you for having me. I'll start off with my first question. You've made significant strides in merging war with social media, even at a young age. You've contributed to articles in the Lawyers Weekly to spearheading your law firm's Tick Tock account. The legal industry. Seems to be gravitating towards a more active presence in social media. In your view, what's driving this shift and do you see it as beneficial, as a beneficial trend for the future of the profession? And perhaps you can also talk about perhaps how you started your law firms ticked off again. Yeah. So my law firm is Mark Lawyers and I started it alongside. I'm one of our secretaries, Georgia. And the way that this happened was every year we have a firm retreat. And at our retreat two years ago, I think we had to brainstorm ideas about what we wanted the firm to basically do or be like or what we saw for Mark in the future. And I had this idea that, you know, we could start a Mark TikTok account. And I was next to my supervising partner at the time who thought, you know what? We could actually do this. And so we basically had to come up with like a pitch or like all of these reasons why we should have a Mark TikTok account to the partnership. And they turned around and said yes. So yeah, we just got started and we started brainstorming ideas and filming videos. And I think that, you know, that push for more of a social media presence has come from like myself and Georgia being younger. Like I'm 21, Georgia's 25. And so, you know, we're on TikTok, we're on Instagram. And I think that overall if you look at like the legal landscape, you have these young professionals that are starting to, you know, like do day in the life videos on TikTok and be like day in the life of a lawyer or day in the life of a paralegal. And I think that that has definitely started to grow. And you're seeing an interest in that from the public as well who are asking questions like what does your typical day look like or tell us more about, you know, the clerkship process or something like that. So I think that that has been a push and you know, firms have started to catch on. So Mark has now done that. There are some other firms which are also on TikTok. I know that some of the bigger firms also have Instagram accounts which are specifically aimed at clerks or graduates. So I think that there is a growing push for it and firms are starting to recognize the value of harnessing social media through recruitment, through getting clients, by also demonstrating that, you know, the the firm has a personality to it. Yeah. And that can actually show the public that, you know, we're not just these serious, intimidating law firms. We actually have lawyers of people. And we actually, you know, we can be funny or like nice and like, you know, it's just changing, I guess, the way that lawyers in our profession is perceived to be. So yeah. And so I suppose there there will be some listeners out there that perhaps are in law firms that perhaps are having this thing, This is a really great idea and might be able to do that. I mean you said you did this two years ago, you would have been 19. How did you, how did you strike up the the, the brave response of the guts to to go ahead and suggest such an idea Or was it do do do you think that it might be simply because you're firms just a really great environment that you know you're able to do that you know, what would you say to someone, perhaps, who may be a little bit more intimidated by, I don't know, introducing such a creative idea? I think I was quite lucky in the sense that my law firm is quite open to new ideas. And they're also, you know, they have like have this kind of like emphasis on doing more differently and trying to, you know, basically counter what many firms are doing, have done traditionally. And so I think that's why the firm was open to letting us do this TikTok idea. And I think a lot of it was also kind of my partner supporting me and being like, hey, like we can actually do this. And like basically listening to what I have to say, which I understand that not every law firm or like, you know, not not all partners will actually listen to what, you know, the young paralegal has to say. So I think, yeah. But I think if you are in in working in an environment that is kind of less open to creative ideas like that, I think like basically pitching it from the angle of this could actually be beneficial for the business. And thinking about it from the perspective of partners is quite important because if you're trying to you know it's basically marketing. If you're trying to show like demonstrate that your firm has a really good culture, like that's a that's a key reason why you should start a social media account on Tiktok. If you, you know want the potential to hire more. If you want to hire more graduates or clerks or paralegals or secretaries, like those are the people that are on Tiktok. And so you know we have heap, we've had heaps of people emailing and asked basically to work with us because they've come like they've seen us on the Tiktok feed. So I think that you know recruitment the prospective clients is another one. You know clients can also see you on Tiktok and we recently actually had a client reach out to us and brought in our client through Tiktok basically. So that's a pretty cool like thing that's happened. And I think also within the firm itself, it's actually quite fun to make them and it just adds to the culture. And, you know, some people are less hesitant to get involved than others. But it's really nice, especially looking back at videos that you've done, you know, from like an event a year ago and then just having that, like, nostalgic feeling like, oh, that was really fun. Like it's good to see like this summary of it so. You might have the, you might have the best currently good job in Sydney like sounds of things to be able to make tik toks and all that. I mean, I suppose one of the other questions in relation to that is that did you face any pushback or did you face any sort of saying oh look like like what are some of the considerations. I mean you do have to be careful. I mean, we are entering A profession and you know, part of being in the profession is to be professional, obviously. Obviously there are, you know, there's a place in a time and there's context that's required and all this sort of stuff. How do you balance all of that? And yeah, I suppose, did you face any push back? So I think we thought about that and to kind of prevent that push back, we kind of proposed that for instance within Mark lawyers like we have myself and Georgia creating the content and the videos and then we run it past Emma who's one of our senior associates and she also runs the Mark Lawyers Instagram. So basically to make sure that we don't accidentally just something that could, you know, be bad or be misinterpreted or, you know, get us cancelled. Yeah, like she just checks everything, checks the captions, make sure everything's OK, and then afterwards it's like ready to upload. So it's just like an approval process, which is kind of funny because it's almost like, you know, you send your partner an e-mail in a draft form and then they approve it and it's like good to go. So yeah, it's very similar to that. And you know, obviously, like, not every personal firm is going to think that a law firm belongs on Tiktok. But so far there have been only positive things that have come out of. Yeah. I think as well it's the evolution of the industry is definitely hating that way and I think people that are resistant to that the market will correct it. And so, yeah, it's kind of a thing of survival of the fittest and if if there is a lack of social media presence, there definitely will be a lack of talent coming in through the door. So that's definitely a really important area. I think that that that's that's you've brought up and if an area that should be explored I think and thought about by by a lot of people. So moving on, we'll talk a little bit now about last year and in 2023 you were honoured with the women in law awards, law student of the year. Could you share more about the journey to be awarded such an honour and what does this achievement mean to you both personally and professionally? I think for me, you know, when I was in kind of late high school, I started to get involved in like, you know, advocacy and started to grow this interest in law because I did things like, you know, debating and mooding and mock trial and all that stuff. And then I started doing some work with UNICEF and I was a young ambassador for them, where basically what we'd do is like we'd go and speak to children and young people in schools, basically educate them about their rights, and then go and speak to politicians about what children and young people are essentially saying to basically ensure that their voices are heard under the children's convention. So I think like all of that work and like also meeting with a bunch of politicians, I kind of felt as though, you know, I wanted to do something where I could actually create change and I had an interest in that. And so yeah, I just, I started uni, started working in first year at a personal injury firm and then now I'm at Mark. And I think that in terms of like winning the award, I guess professionally, I think that I guess like the the work I've put in over the past few years, it kind of feels like, Oh well, it kind of paid off for something. And I think on a personal level, it has opened up a lot of opportunities for me, which I'm really, really grateful for. And I've been able to meet a lot of people who are just really inspiring and also just super lovely. So I think, yeah, it it has, yeah, meant a lot. What was the process like? So obviously you're you're nominated and then do you go through to you or a couple of to you rounds, What's the process like? So you get nominated and then afterwards you have to kind of they send you like a questionnaire and then you like answer the questions. And then there's also a video element to it. And then from what I understand, they basically mark each response and then tally them all off. And then, yeah, it's basically just based on the marks to your responses. And then there's a category winner and then there's an overall winner as well where they like basically take all the different, you know, like barrister of the year, like legal sole practitioner of the year apparently. Like, I'm sorry, law student. But yeah, so I think that's how the whole process works. And that was for women in law and there's also an Australian Law rewards one, which basically just for everyone that. Yeah. Yeah. And so were you a favorite just to win? Like were you shocked at the night when you when you won or? I was quite shocked, to be honest, like I was seated. Do you have a speech ready? No, they didn't. They didn't tell us. They didn't tell us about the speeches. And so like, the first winner got up. I think it might have been academic of the year or something, I don't really remember. But anyway, she got up and then she was like, oh, like it would have been nice to be told to have, like, the speech ready. And I was seated right at the back in like, it was like the the back row of, like all I was like, oh, there's absolutely no way. Like they would put all the winners at the front so they could easily get up the stage. And like, you would have been told shortly so that you could go and, like, say a speech, But no. And then I just, yeah, I I want to say was I wasn't expecting it. And then on the way up because I was so far from the stage in my head, I was just like, OK, like what? What am I going to say? Like just just be ready. So, like, yeah. But anyway. You're out there and you're killed, and I imagine you did well. I think I went OK, Yeah, I would. I would change a few things. Probably just look a bit more like less frazzled. Yeah, well I suppose sticking on your feet is definitely a a good train as well. So anyway, for all those who would go to these awards, perhaps having a bit of a yeah, getting ready to prepare something maybe. But law school can be a pressure proof of academic and extracurricular demands. Based on your experience, what strategies do you suggest for managing these stresses while also ensuring high level performance? So I think first the time management is quite important in ensuring that you know, you set aside time for your studies, time to do extra business, but also I think importantly time to do things that you actually enjoy and love to do. I think that often there's this stress to constantly kind of be on the ball and like you know, you have to finish your ratings in time and you have to make sure you're prepared because like the CP in class and you know people are applying for things and I think it's really easy to get caught up in that. But I think, you know, doing some something that you're passionate about playing a sport, even just like taking a break from things sometimes that can be good to just recharge is really important I think in just, yeah, balancing the workload and not feeling like you're overwhelmed with managing everything. And so are you an advocate for the user of like calendars To Do List? What what? What do you use personally? I use Google Calendar and I love it. I I to be fair, I use Trello for work because I think that's a really good way like setting out your To Do List. But for everything else I use Google Calendar and I like add in reminders about things throughout this that way like I'm on the board and then we'll make it like, you know a day before so that I know what's on for the next day. Yeah, I used to do the whole like get one of those like pretty like Diaries for 2024, but then it just doesn't stick. So yeah, it's also. Meant to have electronic. Yeah, right. And so yeah, making time for the things that you enjoy. I think a lot of people at times perhaps get a little bit, a little bit saddened or perhaps a little bit disheartened when they are in law school or in the real study or something. Perhaps they picked up a subject that they really don't like and then they get started to have second thoughts about am I good enough? Am I really enjoying this? Is this for me? Has that something that you've faced in your journey as a law student and how have you overcome that? Is it just about sticking through it, or is there perhaps perhaps a greater thought process there of, well yeah, perhaps this is something I need to reconsider. I think that definitely happened to me in equity and trust. Yeah. Yeah, I yeah, I think it didn't help because on reflection, I definitely went in being like, oh, like this is going to be hard. Like, I don't know. This is if this is for me. And then when I was actually doing it, I was like, how is everybody around me? Like fine. Like I was finding it really, really difficult and just super challenging. And I think at the end of the day, using the people around you to support you and like, work off and collaborate with is really important because it's almost as if, you know, at least at law school, you're kind of going through the a similar thing as everyone else. And even if you're not, even if you think you're the only one in the room that's you know feeling overwhelmed or feeling like it's a lot to handle, there is bound to be someone else who's feeling the same way, if not like everybody else in the room. So I think that you know leaning on each other and talking about how you're feeling is a really good way to get through it because you feel as though you're kind of going through this like shared experience or someone would say like shared trauma together. So yeah I think that that yeah that's probably I think the most effective way if you have people you can talk to at work as well. I find that that's quite helpful especially if they're older and they've already been through it. I mean, when I was going through equity, I'd go and complain about it every second day and everyone like, don't worry. Like it's hard for all of us. Like trust me, like so many people fail like all this type of, you know, all that type of talk. So I think that kind of helps as well because people have wisdom that they can pass down to. Yeah. Yeah. I think that also like contributes to the to the real community that that the league community has. I think it's no, it's no surprise and I mean so some people sort of draw perhaps a bit of attention to the fact that you know barristers are friends with judges, judges are often friends with solicitors. You know the the the the legal community is all-encompassing and it's because there is that shared experience I think of trauma there. So so yeah, it definitely is the great advice you should lean on other people. So yeah, I mean. Thank you for listening to the Australian Law Student Podcast. The following segment is questions from the Bench. Here we ask our guests a set series of questions designed for you to get to know them better and to get key advice to help you on your journey. Each week we also take a question from you, our audience. Head over to our socials and send us a message to get your question answered. Thanks for listening. I suppose now we're going to move on to the set of rapid fire questions that we ask all our guests to allow our listeners to get a bit of insight into you as a person and to get to know you better. So that so we're starting off. My first question I'll ask you what's been your favorite subject in law school thus far? Definitely public law. Yeah, I think it's. Amazing. What was that? It was just. I think it was mainly because I learnt about the Australian system and like how to kind of create change throughout that or like look at looking at the issues without it throughout it and how to actually change those things. So I think that's yeah, that's why. That's that's a great answer. Fun subject. Yeah, what's 1 habit that you believe has been pivotal to your success as a law student? I honestly feel as though you know obviously there's things like time management and you know all that stuff. But yeah, but I think like talking to people has actually been quite helpful and I think you know I'm not ahd student or anything like that. But I think a lot of what I've done is literally just come from like making friends like people say like networking and stuff. But like you know, there there's obviously like networking events and stuff you can go to and like make really meaningful connections and actually you know find opportunities off other people and each other and what not. But I think talking to people, learning from their experiences, having a mentor, I think all of that stuff has been like, crucial to everything. So I think, yeah. That's great advice. Can you name a book or a movie that's been significant to you and one you'd recommend to students? I'm going to cheat a bit here and say actually a play, yeah, but it's a really, really good play. It's called Jail Baby and it's by Susie Miller. And Susie Miller is actually she's an ex lawyer and now she's become a playwright. And like fun fact, her husband is actually Rob Justice Robert Beach Jones, who's just been appointed 2. 1000. And the I won't spoil too much, but the play, it's just amazing. It's basically talks about, you know, someone that's been incarcerated and it kind of talks about two young men and it really highlights issues of power and privilege and what happens to young men when they go through the justice system. She has a lot of good plays. There's another one called Prima Facie which I haven't watched yet but I've heard very good things about, but anything by her is. Just that's great. We've never had what I recommended before, so well, only the 1st. Moving on. For students inspiring to make an impact in the world, what skill or quality do you believe is the most important for them to develop? I think, I guess it's kind of touching what I said earlier, but being able to connect with people and being a people person I think is a really, really important skill to have and actually like following up and developing relationships with people that you know obviously that they can be useful to you in a sense. But it like I think at the end of the day it's connecting with people when you have shared passions or I guess shared goals and that way you can kind of use those relationships to then. I guess progress and better yourself. I think at the same time being passionate is also really, really important and finding out your purpose and why you actually are doing what you're doing. Like are you just sitting there like reviewing contracts all day for the sake of it or are you actually like you know, doing something meaningful. And I think that once you find that purpose, once you find that passion and also surround yourself by like minded people and connect with those people, I think that that is a really effective way at, you know, creating an impact. Yeah, that's great. That's great. And for this is a question we usually ask people that have graduated. But did you always envision yourself practicing in the field you are or perhaps that you will be in? And if not, what did you think you'd do when you started more school? What do you think you do in high school? What were the sort of, how has that changed, that perception changed? I think in high school I thought I was going to be a barrister and then I actually worked with barristers and I realized I don't want to be a barrister. And then I guess where when I first started working I worked in personal injury and I realized I hated it. And so now I'm doing litigation and I absolutely love it and I think it's what I want to do in the long term. But in saying that, I think sometimes it's a trial and error game, like you will do something and you'll realize you don't like it or you'll do something and you love it. And I feel like there's so many areas of the law I haven't had the opportunity to try it because I'm at such an early stage in my career. But I still would say that I do have a love for commercial litigation and I think it's something that I want to pursue in the future. That's great. That's great. And so what's the greatest piece of advice you've ever received, and who gave it to you? So I think the greatest piece of advice I've received has actually come from my partner at work and my managing partner is when they pulled me aside and were basically like you're 21 like you need to experience the world and travel and you know go and exchange if you want to. And I feel like personally I had felt a lot of pressure to just kind of continue working and just you know like work your way up the food chain and what not. But I think that advice that's yet to be put into practice was quite helpful because it really showed me that, you know, you have the rest of your life to work. And I think that, you know, while many of us are law students, we're also still quite young and we have a lot of the world to see and a lot of things to do. And you know, you can always, you know, do something for a couple of years, then go back to law. And I think that, yeah, just taking taking a break sometimes and ensuring that you can experience as much as you want to in your young years is is important. That's great. That's great. That's great. Finally, a question from one of our listeners in law school. Should law students prioritise gaining work experience to enhance their employability, or should they focus on maximising their legal education? How do you balance the importance of practical experience against academic achievements? Historically, I think firms have placed more emphasis on marks. However, I think that is gradually changing and I think firms are starting to want to hear about your practical experience a lot more. And I also think firms are looking at you as like a whole person. They obviously marks are important and a lot of people have good marks, but they want to see whether you've got some practical experience, whether that be in law or outside of law, whether you know you go horse right and we'll do karate or something like that. So I definitely can see a shift in what firms are looking for at the moment. I also think you know if you're if you compare two students right, you have student A and student B, and student A might be sitting at AHD but hasn't really had much outside of uni, whereas you have student B who might be sitting on, I don't know, a 7075 or something like that. However, they might have a few years of experience working as a paralegal. They might have some other experience working in hospitality. They might also have a few hobbies or run a podcast or something like that. So I think that, you know, firms would probably learn more towards person being now considering like while their marks are a little bit lower, they're still good, but there's so much more true than as a person in terms of their own experiences in life. So yeah, I think there is definitely a gradual change, but marks are definitely important to some extent to get a foot in the door. Yeah, that's that's a great answer. And I think I think again it's it's like a lot of these answers, it's transitional and yeah, I think there is a transition from perhaps the more traditional way that people are employed to yeah, sort of more new, more of the new, more modern way. So anyway, definitely it's about all the we have time for today. So thank you very much for joining me today and I wish you all the best for the rest of the year. Thank you for having me.