Transcript
Hello and welcome to the
Australian Law Student Podcast.
I'm your host Oliver Hammond and
in today's episode I was joined
by Stella law student Daphne
Fong.
When reaching out to Daphne it
was apparent that her passion
for law is something that really
drives her.
She was recognized for this
formally winning the Women in
Law Law Student of the Year
award in 2023.
Still in fourth year, Daphne has
authored and co-authored
articles in the Lawyers Weekly
and is currently a paralegal at
Mark Lawyers, a law firm which
stands out for its novel
approach to the legal
profession.
In the episode, Daphne shares
how she spearheaded the firm's
social media presence, and I
discuss with her more broadly
the balance that needs to be
struck with professionalism and
the evolution that social media
brings.
She also shares her wisdom on
how balancing law school with a
wide variety of extracurriculars
is very important.
So without further ado, sit
back, relax and enjoy the show.
Hello everyone and with me today
I have Daphne Fong.
Thank you, Daphne for joining
with me.
Thank you for having me.
I'll start off with my first
question.
You've made significant strides
in merging war with social
media, even at a young age.
You've contributed to articles
in the Lawyers Weekly to
spearheading your law firm's
Tick Tock account.
The legal industry.
Seems to be gravitating towards
a more active presence in social
media.
In your view, what's driving
this shift and do you see it as
beneficial, as a beneficial
trend for the future of the
profession?
And perhaps you can also talk
about perhaps how you started
your law firms ticked off again.
Yeah.
So my law firm is Mark Lawyers
and I started it alongside.
I'm one of our secretaries,
Georgia.
And the way that this happened
was every year we have a firm
retreat.
And at our retreat two years
ago, I think we had to
brainstorm ideas about what we
wanted the firm to basically do
or be like or what we saw for
Mark in the future.
And I had this idea that, you
know, we could start a Mark
TikTok account.
And I was next to my supervising
partner at the time who thought,
you know what?
We could actually do this.
And so we basically had to come
up with like a pitch or like all
of these reasons why we should
have a Mark TikTok account to
the partnership.
And they turned around and said
yes.
So yeah, we just got started and
we started brainstorming ideas
and filming videos.
And I think that, you know, that
push for more of a social media
presence has come from like
myself and Georgia being
younger.
Like I'm 21, Georgia's 25.
And so, you know, we're on
TikTok, we're on Instagram.
And I think that overall if you
look at like the legal
landscape, you have these young
professionals that are starting
to, you know, like do day in the
life videos on TikTok and be
like day in the life of a lawyer
or day in the life of a
paralegal.
And I think that that has
definitely started to grow.
And you're seeing an interest in
that from the public as well who
are asking questions like what
does your typical day look like
or tell us more about, you know,
the clerkship process or
something like that.
So I think that that has been a
push and you know, firms have
started to catch on.
So Mark has now done that.
There are some other firms which
are also on TikTok.
I know that some of the bigger
firms also have Instagram
accounts which are specifically
aimed at clerks or graduates.
So I think that there is a
growing push for it and firms
are starting to recognize the
value of harnessing social media
through recruitment, through
getting clients, by also
demonstrating that, you know,
the the firm has a personality
to it.
Yeah.
And that can actually show the
public that, you know, we're not
just these serious, intimidating
law firms.
We actually have lawyers of
people.
And we actually, you know, we
can be funny or like nice and
like, you know, it's just
changing, I guess, the way that
lawyers in our profession is
perceived to be.
So yeah.
And so I suppose there there
will be some listeners out there
that perhaps are in law firms
that perhaps are having this
thing, This is a really great
idea and might be able to do
that.
I mean you said you did this two
years ago, you would have been
19.
How did you, how did you strike
up the the, the brave response
of the guts to to go ahead and
suggest such an idea Or was it
do do do you think that it might
be simply because you're firms
just a really great environment
that you know you're able to do
that you know, what would you
say to someone, perhaps, who may
be a little bit more intimidated
by, I don't know, introducing
such a creative idea?
I think I was quite lucky in the
sense that my law firm is quite
open to new ideas.
And they're also, you know, they
have like have this kind of like
emphasis on doing more
differently and trying to, you
know, basically counter what
many firms are doing, have done
traditionally.
And so I think that's why the
firm was open to letting us do
this TikTok idea.
And I think a lot of it was also
kind of my partner supporting me
and being like, hey, like we can
actually do this.
And like basically listening to
what I have to say, which I
understand that not every law
firm or like, you know, not not
all partners will actually
listen to what, you know, the
young paralegal has to say.
So I think, yeah.
But I think if you are in in
working in an environment that
is kind of less open to creative
ideas like that, I think like
basically pitching it from the
angle of this could actually be
beneficial for the business.
And thinking about it from the
perspective of partners is quite
important because if you're
trying to you know it's
basically marketing.
If you're trying to show like
demonstrate that your firm has a
really good culture, like that's
a that's a key reason why you
should start a social media
account on Tiktok.
If you, you know want the
potential to hire more.
If you want to hire more
graduates or clerks or
paralegals or secretaries, like
those are the people that are on
Tiktok.
And so you know we have heap,
we've had heaps of people
emailing and asked basically to
work with us because they've
come like they've seen us on the
Tiktok feed.
So I think that you know
recruitment the prospective
clients is another one.
You know clients can also see
you on Tiktok and we recently
actually had a client reach out
to us and brought in our client
through Tiktok basically.
So that's a pretty cool like
thing that's happened.
And I think also within the firm
itself, it's actually quite fun
to make them and it just adds to
the culture.
And, you know, some people are
less hesitant to get involved
than others.
But it's really nice, especially
looking back at videos that
you've done, you know, from like
an event a year ago and then
just having that, like,
nostalgic feeling like, oh, that
was really fun.
Like it's good to see like this
summary of it so.
You might have the, you might
have the best currently good job
in Sydney like sounds of things
to be able to make tik toks and
all that.
I mean, I suppose one of the
other questions in relation to
that is that did you face any
pushback or did you face any
sort of saying oh look like like
what are some of the
considerations.
I mean you do have to be
careful.
I mean, we are entering A
profession and you know, part of
being in the profession is to be
professional, obviously.
Obviously there are, you know,
there's a place in a time and
there's context that's required
and all this sort of stuff.
How do you balance all of that?
And yeah, I suppose, did you
face any push back?
So I think we thought about that
and to kind of prevent that push
back, we kind of proposed that
for instance within Mark lawyers
like we have myself and Georgia
creating the content and the
videos and then we run it past
Emma who's one of our senior
associates and she also runs the
Mark Lawyers Instagram.
So basically to make sure that
we don't accidentally just
something that could, you know,
be bad or be misinterpreted or,
you know, get us cancelled.
Yeah, like she just checks
everything, checks the captions,
make sure everything's OK, and
then afterwards it's like ready
to upload.
So it's just like an approval
process, which is kind of funny
because it's almost like, you
know, you send your partner an
e-mail in a draft form and then
they approve it and it's like
good to go.
So yeah, it's very similar to
that.
And you know, obviously, like,
not every personal firm is going
to think that a law firm belongs
on Tiktok.
But so far there have been only
positive things that have come
out of.
Yeah.
I think as well it's the
evolution of the industry is
definitely hating that way and I
think people that are resistant
to that the market will correct
it.
And so, yeah, it's kind of a
thing of survival of the fittest
and if if there is a lack of
social media presence, there
definitely will be a lack of
talent coming in through the
door.
So that's definitely a really
important area.
I think that that that's that's
you've brought up and if an area
that should be explored I think
and thought about by by a lot of
people.
So moving on, we'll talk a
little bit now about last year
and in 2023 you were honoured
with the women in law awards,
law student of the year.
Could you share more about the
journey to be awarded such an
honour and what does this
achievement mean to you both
personally and professionally?
I think for me, you know, when I
was in kind of late high school,
I started to get involved in
like, you know, advocacy and
started to grow this interest in
law because I did things like,
you know, debating and mooding
and mock trial and all that
stuff.
And then I started doing some
work with UNICEF and I was a
young ambassador for them, where
basically what we'd do is like
we'd go and speak to children
and young people in schools,
basically educate them about
their rights, and then go and
speak to politicians about what
children and young people are
essentially saying to basically
ensure that their voices are
heard under the children's
convention.
So I think like all of that work
and like also meeting with a
bunch of politicians, I kind of
felt as though, you know, I
wanted to do something where I
could actually create change and
I had an interest in that.
And so yeah, I just, I started
uni, started working in first
year at a personal injury firm
and then now I'm at Mark.
And I think that in terms of
like winning the award, I guess
professionally, I think that I
guess like the the work I've put
in over the past few years, it
kind of feels like, Oh well, it
kind of paid off for something.
And I think on a personal level,
it has opened up a lot of
opportunities for me, which I'm
really, really grateful for.
And I've been able to meet a lot
of people who are just really
inspiring and also just super
lovely.
So I think, yeah, it it has,
yeah, meant a lot.
What was the process like?
So obviously you're you're
nominated and then do you go
through to you or a couple of to
you rounds, What's the process
like?
So you get nominated and then
afterwards you have to kind of
they send you like a
questionnaire and then you like
answer the questions.
And then there's also a video
element to it.
And then from what I understand,
they basically mark each
response and then tally them all
off.
And then, yeah, it's basically
just based on the marks to your
responses.
And then there's a category
winner and then there's an
overall winner as well where
they like basically take all the
different, you know, like
barrister of the year, like
legal sole practitioner of the
year apparently.
Like, I'm sorry, law student.
But yeah, so I think that's how
the whole process works.
And that was for women in law
and there's also an Australian
Law rewards one, which basically
just for everyone that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so were you a favorite just
to win?
Like were you shocked at the
night when you when you won or?
I was quite shocked, to be
honest, like I was seated.
Do you have a speech ready?
No, they didn't.
They didn't tell us.
They didn't tell us about the
speeches.
And so like, the first winner
got up.
I think it might have been
academic of the year or
something, I don't really
remember.
But anyway, she got up and then
she was like, oh, like it would
have been nice to be told to
have, like, the speech ready.
And I was seated right at the
back in like, it was like the
the back row of, like all I was
like, oh, there's absolutely no
way.
Like they would put all the
winners at the front so they
could easily get up the stage.
And like, you would have been
told shortly so that you could
go and, like, say a speech, But
no.
And then I just, yeah, I I want
to say was I wasn't expecting
it.
And then on the way up because I
was so far from the stage in my
head, I was just like, OK, like
what?
What am I going to say?
Like just just be ready.
So, like, yeah.
But anyway.
You're out there and you're
killed, and I imagine you did
well.
I think I went OK, Yeah, I
would.
I would change a few things.
Probably just look a bit more
like less frazzled.
Yeah, well I suppose sticking on
your feet is definitely a a good
train as well.
So anyway, for all those who
would go to these awards,
perhaps having a bit of a yeah,
getting ready to prepare
something maybe.
But law school can be a pressure
proof of academic and
extracurricular demands.
Based on your experience, what
strategies do you suggest for
managing these stresses while
also ensuring high level
performance?
So I think first the time
management is quite important in
ensuring that you know, you set
aside time for your studies,
time to do extra business, but
also I think importantly time to
do things that you actually
enjoy and love to do.
I think that often there's this
stress to constantly kind of be
on the ball and like you know,
you have to finish your ratings
in time and you have to make
sure you're prepared because
like the CP in class and you
know people are applying for
things and I think it's really
easy to get caught up in that.
But I think, you know, doing
some something that you're
passionate about playing a
sport, even just like taking a
break from things sometimes that
can be good to just recharge is
really important I think in
just, yeah, balancing the
workload and not feeling like
you're overwhelmed with managing
everything.
And so are you an advocate for
the user of like calendars To Do
List?
What what?
What do you use personally?
I use Google Calendar and I love
it.
I I to be fair, I use Trello for
work because I think that's a
really good way like setting out
your To Do List.
But for everything else I use
Google Calendar and I like add
in reminders about things
throughout this that way like
I'm on the board and then we'll
make it like, you know a day
before so that I know what's on
for the next day.
Yeah, I used to do the whole
like get one of those like
pretty like Diaries for 2024,
but then it just doesn't stick.
So yeah, it's also.
Meant to have electronic.
Yeah, right.
And so yeah, making time for the
things that you enjoy.
I think a lot of people at times
perhaps get a little bit, a
little bit saddened or perhaps a
little bit disheartened when
they are in law school or in the
real study or something.
Perhaps they picked up a subject
that they really don't like and
then they get started to have
second thoughts about am I good
enough?
Am I really enjoying this?
Is this for me?
Has that something that you've
faced in your journey as a law
student and how have you
overcome that?
Is it just about sticking
through it, or is there perhaps
perhaps a greater thought
process there of, well yeah,
perhaps this is something I need
to reconsider.
I think that definitely happened
to me in equity and trust.
Yeah.
Yeah, I yeah, I think it didn't
help because on reflection, I
definitely went in being like,
oh, like this is going to be
hard.
Like, I don't know.
This is if this is for me.
And then when I was actually
doing it, I was like, how is
everybody around me?
Like fine.
Like I was finding it really,
really difficult and just super
challenging.
And I think at the end of the
day, using the people around you
to support you and like, work
off and collaborate with is
really important because it's
almost as if, you know, at least
at law school, you're kind of
going through the a similar
thing as everyone else.
And even if you're not, even if
you think you're the only one in
the room that's you know feeling
overwhelmed or feeling like it's
a lot to handle, there is bound
to be someone else who's feeling
the same way, if not like
everybody else in the room.
So I think that you know leaning
on each other and talking about
how you're feeling is a really
good way to get through it
because you feel as though
you're kind of going through
this like shared experience or
someone would say like shared
trauma together.
So yeah I think that that yeah
that's probably I think the most
effective way if you have people
you can talk to at work as well.
I find that that's quite helpful
especially if they're older and
they've already been through it.
I mean, when I was going through
equity, I'd go and complain
about it every second day and
everyone like, don't worry.
Like it's hard for all of us.
Like trust me, like so many
people fail like all this type
of, you know, all that type of
talk.
So I think that kind of helps as
well because people have wisdom
that they can pass down to.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that also like
contributes to the to the real
community that that the league
community has.
I think it's no, it's no
surprise and I mean so some
people sort of draw perhaps a
bit of attention to the fact
that you know barristers are
friends with judges, judges are
often friends with solicitors.
You know the the the the legal
community is all-encompassing
and it's because there is that
shared experience I think of
trauma there.
So so yeah, it definitely is the
great advice you should lean on
other people.
So yeah, I mean.
Thank you for listening to the
Australian Law Student Podcast.
The following segment is
questions from the Bench.
Here we ask our guests a set
series of questions designed for
you to get to know them better
and to get key advice to help
you on your journey.
Each week we also take a
question from you, our audience.
Head over to our socials and
send us a message to get your
question answered.
Thanks for listening.
I suppose now we're going to
move on to the set of rapid fire
questions that we ask all our
guests to allow our listeners to
get a bit of insight into you as
a person and to get to know you
better.
So that so we're starting off.
My first question I'll ask you
what's been your favorite
subject in law school thus far?
Definitely public law.
Yeah, I think it's.
Amazing.
What was that?
It was just.
I think it was mainly because I
learnt about the Australian
system and like how to kind of
create change throughout that or
like look at looking at the
issues without it throughout it
and how to actually change those
things.
So I think that's yeah, that's
why.
That's that's a great answer.
Fun subject.
Yeah, what's 1 habit that you
believe has been pivotal to your
success as a law student?
I honestly feel as though you
know obviously there's things
like time management and you
know all that stuff.
But yeah, but I think like
talking to people has actually
been quite helpful and I think
you know I'm not ahd student or
anything like that.
But I think a lot of what I've
done is literally just come from
like making friends like people
say like networking and stuff.
But like you know, there there's
obviously like networking events
and stuff you can go to and like
make really meaningful
connections and actually you
know find opportunities off
other people and each other and
what not.
But I think talking to people,
learning from their experiences,
having a mentor, I think all of
that stuff has been like,
crucial to everything.
So I think, yeah.
That's great advice.
Can you name a book or a movie
that's been significant to you
and one you'd recommend to
students?
I'm going to cheat a bit here
and say actually a play, yeah,
but it's a really, really good
play.
It's called Jail Baby and it's
by Susie Miller.
And Susie Miller is actually
she's an ex lawyer and now she's
become a playwright.
And like fun fact, her husband
is actually Rob Justice Robert
Beach Jones, who's just been
appointed 2. 1000.
And the I won't spoil too much,
but the play, it's just amazing.
It's basically talks about, you
know, someone that's been
incarcerated and it kind of
talks about two young men and it
really highlights issues of
power and privilege and what
happens to young men when they
go through the justice system.
She has a lot of good plays.
There's another one called Prima
Facie which I haven't watched
yet but I've heard very good
things about, but anything by
her is.
Just that's great.
We've never had what I
recommended before, so well,
only the 1st.
Moving on.
For students inspiring to make
an impact in the world, what
skill or quality do you believe
is the most important for them
to develop?
I think, I guess it's kind of
touching what I said earlier,
but being able to connect with
people and being a people person
I think is a really, really
important skill to have and
actually like following up and
developing relationships with
people that you know obviously
that they can be useful to you
in a sense.
But it like I think at the end
of the day it's connecting with
people when you have shared
passions or I guess shared goals
and that way you can kind of use
those relationships to then.
I guess progress and better
yourself.
I think at the same time being
passionate is also really,
really important and finding out
your purpose and why you
actually are doing what you're
doing.
Like are you just sitting there
like reviewing contracts all day
for the sake of it or are you
actually like you know, doing
something meaningful.
And I think that once you find
that purpose, once you find that
passion and also surround
yourself by like minded people
and connect with those people, I
think that that is a really
effective way at, you know,
creating an impact.
Yeah, that's great.
That's great.
And for this is a question we
usually ask people that have
graduated.
But did you always envision
yourself practicing in the field
you are or perhaps that you will
be in?
And if not, what did you think
you'd do when you started more
school?
What do you think you do in high
school?
What were the sort of, how has
that changed, that perception
changed?
I think in high school I thought
I was going to be a barrister
and then I actually worked with
barristers and I realized I
don't want to be a barrister.
And then I guess where when I
first started working I worked
in personal injury and I
realized I hated it.
And so now I'm doing litigation
and I absolutely love it and I
think it's what I want to do in
the long term.
But in saying that, I think
sometimes it's a trial and error
game, like you will do something
and you'll realize you don't
like it or you'll do something
and you love it.
And I feel like there's so many
areas of the law I haven't had
the opportunity to try it
because I'm at such an early
stage in my career.
But I still would say that I do
have a love for commercial
litigation and I think it's
something that I want to pursue
in the future.
That's great.
That's great.
And so what's the greatest piece
of advice you've ever received,
and who gave it to you?
So I think the greatest piece of
advice I've received has
actually come from my partner at
work and my managing partner is
when they pulled me aside and
were basically like you're 21
like you need to experience the
world and travel and you know go
and exchange if you want to.
And I feel like personally I had
felt a lot of pressure to just
kind of continue working and
just you know like work your way
up the food chain and what not.
But I think that advice that's
yet to be put into practice was
quite helpful because it really
showed me that, you know, you
have the rest of your life to
work.
And I think that, you know,
while many of us are law
students, we're also still quite
young and we have a lot of the
world to see and a lot of things
to do.
And you know, you can always,
you know, do something for a
couple of years, then go back to
law.
And I think that, yeah, just
taking taking a break sometimes
and ensuring that you can
experience as much as you want
to in your young years is is
important.
That's great.
That's great.
That's great.
Finally, a question from one of
our listeners in law school.
Should law students prioritise
gaining work experience to
enhance their employability, or
should they focus on maximising
their legal education?
How do you balance the
importance of practical
experience against academic
achievements?
Historically, I think firms have
placed more emphasis on marks.
However, I think that is
gradually changing and I think
firms are starting to want to
hear about your practical
experience a lot more.
And I also think firms are
looking at you as like a whole
person.
They obviously marks are
important and a lot of people
have good marks, but they want
to see whether you've got some
practical experience, whether
that be in law or outside of
law, whether you know you go
horse right and we'll do karate
or something like that.
So I definitely can see a shift
in what firms are looking for at
the moment.
I also think you know if you're
if you compare two students
right, you have student A and
student B, and student A might
be sitting at AHD but hasn't
really had much outside of uni,
whereas you have student B who
might be sitting on, I don't
know, a 7075 or something like
that.
However, they might have a few
years of experience working as a
paralegal.
They might have some other
experience working in
hospitality.
They might also have a few
hobbies or run a podcast or
something like that.
So I think that, you know, firms
would probably learn more
towards person being now
considering like while their
marks are a little bit lower,
they're still good, but there's
so much more true than as a
person in terms of their own
experiences in life.
So yeah, I think there is
definitely a gradual change, but
marks are definitely important
to some extent to get a foot in
the door.
Yeah, that's that's a great
answer.
And I think I think again it's
it's like a lot of these
answers, it's transitional and
yeah, I think there is a
transition from perhaps the more
traditional way that people are
employed to yeah, sort of more
new, more of the new, more
modern way.
So anyway, definitely it's about
all the we have time for today.
So thank you very much for
joining me today and I wish you
all the best for the rest of the
year.
Thank you for having me.