Transcript
Hello everyone and welcome back
to the Australian Law Student
Podcast.
I'm your host, Oliver Hammond,
and in today's episode I had the
pleasure of sitting down with
one of Australia's most
respected corporate lawyers,
Tony Damian.
From the $32 billion acquisition
of Sydney Airport, the largest
takeover in Australian history,
to the landmark $4.9 billion
Suncorp ANZ deal, Tony has
played a leading role in some of
Australia's largest and most
significant transactions.
Beyond his legal practice, he is
a thought leader, Co authoring
the authoritative text schemes
takeovers and Himalayan Peaks.
Cited in over 50 judgements and
described as the pre eminent
text on Company Mergers, it is
without a shadow of a doubt Tony
is one of, if not the best M and
a lawyer in Australia.
So whether you're a student, a
lawyer, or just someone who
enjoys sharp insight and a good
story, this is certainly a
conversation you won't want to
miss.
Hello everyone and welcome back
to the Australian Law Student
Podcast.
I'm your host Oliver Hammond and
today I'm joined by Co host
Nicholas Hopkinson and very
special guest Tony Damien.
Tony, thanks so much for sitting
down with us today.
Pleasure to be here as our
pleasure to host you.
Tony, to start off, could you
take us through your journey?
How did you first find your way
into the law and what led you to
specialized in M&A specifically?
And what also some of the key
moments or milestones that have
shaped your career thus far.
Yeah, well, it was back in
ancient times when I had an
interest in in Laura's at
school.
I grew up in a town up the coast
called Foster Tonkari.
Small regional town, great
place.
And I think it was in the back
of your tent.
I had an interest in current
affairs, in international
affairs as well and thought that
a law degree would be a great
way of opening doors to do
something interesting down the
track, whatever that might be.
Now in Foster Time Carry, the
path to Sydney Law School is,
which is where I wanted to go.
Wasn't necessarily obvious, but
I had a very lucky break.
So during during the school
holidays, I would work as a
waiter in a local restaurant and
Foster Time Carry was a town
where a lot of Sydney lawyers
would come for holidays.
And one night I was serving one
of these Sydney lawyers and we
got talking and he found out
that I was interested in going
to law school.
Yeah, I'm sorry.
This person was good enough to
go back to Sydney, to go to
Sydney University, pick up a
copy of the Sydney Law School
Handbook and post it back to me
with a lovely note inside it
saying, Tony, I believe you can
do this, you know, have a go.
And that moment gave me a lot of
encouragement and a lot of
belief that, well, I didn't know
anyone who'd been to Sydney Law
School and I was a lawyer that,
that, that was something I could
do.
So that was a big moment and a
lucky break.
Went to law school, did a summer
clerkship and the path to M and
I was was a funny old one.
So for reasons I do not
remember, I came out of law
school thinking I'm going to be
a finance layer.
Nothing wrong with that, of
course.
It's a it's a wonderful thing,
finance law.
And I called up my Old Firm and
said where do I go to start work
on Monday?
It wasn't the Internet or emails
back in those days.
And the lucky thing was that
they'd forgotten to tear up my
rotation in finance and said,
well, we can't do that in time,
but would you like to go to M&A?
And my, my quite honest response
was what's M&A?
And they said, oh, it's merged
as an acquisition, it's
transactions into lock, but
finance, but it's different but
really good.
And I said, sure, I'll do a
rotation in this M&A thing.
And that's how I got into M&A
quite accidentally and within
quite literally, I can say it
now, I've been doing it for a
while.
Within five days I was just, I
was in Ludmore.
I thought this is so
interesting, it's so broad.
It was going to be so hard to go
across all of this.
It just seemed to be, you know,
a lot, a lot to do with M&A.
And so I was the accidental M&A
lawyer, but but happily so.
And I think to your question
about moments and milestones,
that probably leads into one of
the most important moments in my
career journey, which I think is
probably true for a lot of
people.
It's it's connecting with a
great mentor.
And so quite by accident, not
only did I have the good fortune
to end up in M and AI had the
extra good fortune to end up
with a partner who was a true
mentor in the sense of someone
who cared deeply about training
junior lawyers, looking after
them, making sure they were
developing, spending that extra
hour at the end of the day
sitting across the table
explaining why the merge
agreement I'd put together
needed, you know, 2 litres of
red ink on it, but explaining it
all.
And you really, you really
learnt with, with someone like
that teaching you.
And so that was if not the
biggest moment on Milestone that
was right up there to have
someone like that be your mentor
on developing.
So very, very fortunate for
that.
Were were there any on
transactions or any specific
merge that you that stick in in
your mind is something that was
formative to your?
Legal career.
Yeah, early in the early years
and not that we did anything
wrong, but several of our merge
deals got litigated like in the
and when you had courts before
the takeover was penalized.
And that was formative in the
sense that to have someone and a
team of lawyers and silks
etcetera try and take your
transaction apart gave you a
quite an appreciation of doing
things properly and and getting
it right.
And so that was early on.
I think that was their important
moments to have that that
challenge and it gave you a
very, very important
perspective, I think.
And do you think that your
background coming from a
regional era and then moving to
the city shaped your career in
any way?
Oh.
I think it did very much so.
So I remember, you know, doing
the clerkship and then starting
out as a junior lawyer and I
still do today, having an
enormous sense of gratitude that
I got to come into a place like,
you know, a big, big commercial
orphan and work with lots of
really nice and smart people
both at the firm and at our
clients and do lots of really
interesting things in in that
sort of environment.
I feel I was very lucky and so
always came in grateful smile on
my face and excited to be to be
doing what I did.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, thanks so much for your
answer to that.
I'll lay a hand over to Nick.
So, Tony.
As I'm sure.
You're well aware.
AI seems to be the acronym on
everyone's lips at the moment.
How are AI and data analytics
changing the nature and focus of
due diligence in Major M and A
transactions, and are there any?
New forms of.
Quote UN quote technical
diligence that are becoming
standard.
It's, it's a really good
question.
And so I think taking a step
back for a moment, my view on AI
is it should enable us to do
what we do and to do it better.
So don't necessarily see AI as
some sort of substitute and oh,
we're not going to need lawyers
anymore or, or whatever.
We still will.
But as with other forms of
technology over the years, the
club lawyers do things in a
better way.
AI would do that.
Perhaps it's influence would be
more profound.
And so then turning to to due
diligence, you know, the point
of due diligence is not a thing
for the sake of it.
It has a point and the point is
to help people understand.
So we know what are you buying?
Is it what we think we're
buying?
Are there any problems?
Once we've had a look under the
hood, will we be able to
integrate this thing?
Are there things we need to know
to get our regulatory approvals,
all those sorts of things.
And so that's the purpose of it.
What AI can do already, and I'm
sure this will become more
powerful over the years, is to
help lawyers look at all of
those questions.
And so from first level reviews
of suites of contracts to other
things, AI can have a really
good role there.
But for me, none of that is a
substitute for the, the, the
good legal judgement that is
needed.
So before we just unleash AI,
they're important questions.
Well, what's actually critical
in this, in this business?
What do we actually need to be
looking at?
What's going to be vital to
success or failure?
And where do we need to point
the AI?
It's not just sort of unleash
the, the AI hounds and, and how
that comes back with this stuff.
So there's a lot of judgement
there.
And AI can already do a great
job in, you know, producing
first several reviews and other
things.
But then again, there's a
lawyer's judgement that needs to
be applied to that output.
And so checking the, what AI has
thought were the right questions
to which it's producing answers,
it, it's approached that
correctly that there's no nuance
that's been missed.
And so I, I see IAI as an
exciting enabler, but one that
enables as opposed to
substitutes.
And so yes, it will make
diligence.
I think it will really help and
add efficiencies and some speed
to the guy in there, but it's
not a substitute.
And so I think the core question
of why are you doing diligence
remains the same.
It's just how you do it and how
you're enabled to do that
through the use of AI that
that's going to be different,
and that indeed is different
already.
Do you think that AI will
stimulate deal activity?
Or shorten time to closures.
Yeah.
Well, will it stimulate deal
activity?
I'm not sure I'd say it will be
a stimulant, but will it be
helpful?
And does it have the potential
to condense some time frames?
Absolutely.
And so you know, in particularly
in listed, so public company MNA
listed takeovers and mergers,
the time frames can be quite
tight because people are worried
about disclosure and leaks and
therefore wanting to get to
their agreement before that
happens.
And while they're listed
companies and therefore there's
already a lot of disclosure in,
in the market, there are things
that people still want to look
at.
And so the extent AI can help
condense those diligence
timeframes, then that's going to
be that's going to be helpful.
In in relation to those sort of
newer technological trends,
where do you see the law in say
5 to 10 years?
Anyone who tells you they
absolutely know what the law
will plug in five to 10 years is
probably lying.
Where do I think the trend or
the OR the the trend line is
going?
I think it's going to be a
greater use of AI and and
technologies.
I think in terms of social media
and those sorts of things.
What do they compel us all to
do?
Whether it's in law or something
else?
There's a lot of condensed
communication.
Is that a bad thing?
No, I don't think it's a bad
thing because even as a lawyer
pre all of this technology, you
need to be able to communicate
very complex things very simply.
And and so in a funny hour, why
modern social media is the
almost the ultimate form of
condensing communication.
So I think that'll be helpful
and that'll be a way of always
being able to connect with with
clients and indeed the market.
And one of the great benefits, I
think, and this will this will
be a trend that really gets
going over the next 5 to 10
years.
And we're already seeing it, is
the power of social media and
those technologies in terms of
thought, thought leadership and
provoking discussion and debate.
I'm actually quite optimistic
about that.
I know a lot of people would
say, and in some spheres it's
probably true that social media
sort of dumbs everything down,
even produced to a quick little
tweet or whatever.
Yeah, but there's I think in
law, the very positive
possibility and the probability
that it will encourage us to to
debate matters, to talk about
the issues of the day, to get
reform ideas guy and so on.
So more AI enabling people to do
things both on on big
transactions and big
investigations and disputes.
I think social media will
continue to play an important
role, but hopefully a +1 in the
way I've mentioned.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, thank you so much for your
answers to those questions.
I'll now move on to our
standardised questions at Rapid
Fire, questions that we ask all
our guests for our audience to
get to know you a little bit
better.
Starting for the first one, what
was your favorite subject in law
school and wife?
Yes, good, good question.
It was the very excitingly named
Corporate Finance B, which was a
coursework subject in in my
master's and I did my master's
straight after my undergraduate
degree again at Sydney
University.
I really found the course very
enjoyable.
Maybe this explains that
financial thing I had been
thinking about.
It had some great, some great
people from the university
teaching it, had some
practitioners teaching parts of
it as well and I really enjoyed
it.
And then the interesting thing
from it was the paper I wrote
for my sort of assessment part
of the subject got published in
the Company and Securities Law
Journal.
And so again, on my journey,
that was a pretty important
enabling moment.
And so like, oh wow, I was, you
know, something I did was
considered good enough to get
published in the in a journal
that I held in high regard.
And I think that encouraged me
down the track to to keep
writing things as as I
eventually did.
Yeah.
And and I suppose do you have
any advice to students that
perhaps are tossing out whether
to extend study or and do extra
study or do get into their
career and and start career
experience?
It's often a question that
students what what if you have
any advice in relation?
Yes, I, I don't think like a lot
of things in life, I don't think
there's an off the shelf,
absolute right or wrong answer
that's, you know,
one-size-fits-all on that.
And so I think my advice to
people would be, well, what is
it you are hoping to do in your
career?
And you know, life is fluid, you
might know and things will
change.
What is it you're thinking of
doing on the study front?
Is it going to be something
that's hopefully you're
passionate about or interested
in?
If it happens to be something
that could be useful to what you
think you're going to do in your
career, that's great.
But also it's a long game.
And so if there's an opportunity
to do some overseas studies for
a year or so, that's not going
to set you back at all.
And indeed, you're probably
going to learn some things and
meet some people and have some
challenge because you're going
to be in a high quality
environment, exposed to new
ideas, new people that you know,
I will hold it in good stead.
So it it's not going to be
something that'll be a detriment
in terms of wow, I've just
wasted dear.
Absolutely not.
Equally, if you're keen and
excited to get into work
straight away, go for it.
Nothing wrong with that.
There's not really a bad answer.
And again, life is, it's a long
journey.
And so if you start work and you
decide in two or three years
time you want to do the study,
you can do that.
If you want to do the study,
it's not going to hold you back
either.
So I think talk to your your
colleagues, your friends, your
family says it'll make a
decision.
Stick with that.
There's not going to be a right
or wrong decision.
And whatever you do, embrace it
with energy.
Yeah, it's a great answer.
Thanks so much.
Moving on, what's 1 habit you
believe is being pivotal to your
success in the legal field?
Yes, I'm I'm not sure if it's a
habit that I or so it's the idea
of you know to keep going.
So maybe that's persistence with
a bit of resilience at different
stages of career that's been
pretty helpful.
So I was a, you know, as like a
young lawyer, if you're working
on things and it's all a bit,
it's, it's tough and it's busy
to keep going and realize that
there'll be people around to
help you.
And that sort of those busy
stretches end before you know
it.
And you'll learn what, what from
them as as you get more senior
in your career and you become a
partner again, the ability to
keep going because people often
say to be, wow, look at all
these things you've done, you
know, wow, just you must have
always had success and never had
any disappointments.
And nothing could be further
from the truth.
We mightn't put the, the
disappointments on our profiles
on websites.
But in my view, I think the
disappointments are things you
learn so much more from than the
successes and how you respond to
the disappointments or the
failures or where you fell short
of what you hoped, the standards
you hoped set for yourself.
That's where I think you will
learn more about who you are and
it's responding to those
disappointments and maybe not
all of the time, but hopefully a
lot of the time where I've
something hasn't gone my way to
keep going and see it as a
learning experience, I think is
something that is really
important for a for a long, a
long and happy career.
Yeah, I think coming from
someone like yourself and saying
that there, there are times
where you will be disheartened
throughout your careers, just
that's that's very
inspirational.
I think a lot of people get a
lot out of that because I think
you're right, there's a lot of
success.
There's a lot of this is what
I've achieved all over on
company profiles and social
media and things like that, but
often is a different story
behind it.
And yeah, thank you so much for
sharing that advice.
Can you name a book or a movie
that's been significant to you
and one you'd recommend as
students?
Look, I was going to say
schemes, takeovers in Himalaya.
The last afterwards, yeah.
That's it.
The last edition was 18170 pages
and I wouldn't wish that upon
anyone to to try and read that
thing from from front to that.
So perhaps connected to my prior
answer, I'll go with and you
know, maybe this isn't the first
time someone's come up with this
one, but the good old
Meditations by Marcus Aurelius.
So the Stoic philosopher, the
emperor of Ryan who who had his,
you know, not the musings that
we're still reading a couple of
1000 years later.
I think it's an important book.
It's not, it's not just the
book, it's the whole idea of
there's a bunch of stuff that
goes on in the world that you
can't control and stare at
yourself and stare at what you
can control.
And idea of philosophy as being
something that at a practical
level, day-to-day helps you
improve yourself.
And I think sort of stumbling
across that thinking, I think
it's been really interesting for
me and I wish I'd sort of come
across that when I was your age
instead of there.
There's one Meditations Marcus
Aurelius being on the best
sellers list for 2000 years with
a with a quick.
Read.
Yeah, you're right.
That's a great book.
And yeah, certainly one that
I've read and I, yeah, fully
endorsed that that that choice.
Now it's time for our last
question.
Tony, what's the greatest piece
of advice you've ever received?
And that maybe you can serve it,
who gave it or whatever.
I will I happily share it.
So so this is where I think
lawyers and particulars, you
know, I had a bit of time in in
the role have an obligation to
care for and develop younger
lawyers.
So when I was younger lawyer as
a partner of my my alpha and
John Hugh Clifford Colvin Oami
tip my hat to join.
If you're out there listening,
I'm sure you are.
And John was the sort of guy
he'd come around and just pop in
on junior lawyers, not
necessarily in his section, just
to have a chat and everything.
And one day he popped into me.
We were having a chat.
And the piece of advice, which I
still remember is in terms of
career advice, if you do work
you really enjoy with people you
really enjoy doing it with, and
they're lucky enough to be able
to do that, you will have a long
and happy career.
And I think that was great
advice.
Now, you know, nothing's
absolute in life.
And so there might be some
things where, you know, you end
up saying, I'm absolutely
passionate about that, but
there's a general, there's a
general thing.
And so when I'd had the shop
revelation that, oh, I might be
an M and a lawyer instead of a
finance lawyer applying that
advice, well, it was clearly M&A
that I love doing.
And I looked around and the
people I was doing it with and
also at the clients too, by the
way, I've.
I've tried to deal with people
I, I love doing it with.
And so I think that's a good
little, a good little nugget
from John.
Yeah.
Well, Tony, thank you so much
for joining us today on the
podcast, and I wish you all the
best for the rest of the year.
Thank you.
It's been a pleasure.
Cheers.
Thank you.