Wolfgang Babeck: Comparative Law and Building a Global Legal Career

Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Australian Law Student Podcast. I'm your host, Oliver Hammond, and in today's episode, I had the pleasure of sitting down with Wolfgang Berbek. Wolfgang currently serves as European Council at Horne and Wilcox, where he advises international companies on commercial law and doing business in Australia. He also. Lectures in Comparative Constitutional Law at Bond University and chairs the International Law Section of the Law Council of Australia, where he runs a popular program for students and professionals interested in international law. In our conversation, we unpacked his fascinating global career, what it means to be an international commercial lawyer, and his thoughts on legal education. So without further ado, sit back, relax, and enjoy the podcast. Wolfgang, thank you so much for sitting down with me today. It'll be a pleasure to have you on the podcast, I'm sure. How are you? And very well, yeah. Thank you, Oliver. That's right, that's right. I'll start off with my first question. I want you to reflect back on your career. You've moved across countries, advised international clients, and written on comparative law. But can you take us back to where it all began and what was happening in the world and in your own life as you were finishing law school? Were there particular moments or unexpected turns early on that shaped the direction your career would take? Yeah, that's a complex question. Maybe, maybe I, I that goes back a long way. So maybe I, I start from the very beginning because I thought about it, because it's really, it's really a bit different from here. So I started studying law in Cologne at the Cologne University when I wasn't even a student. So I, I obviously graduated from high school and I, I was then in the military service in Cologne and I thought, well, why not use a bit of the evening to go to law school and, and listen in, you know, and because education is for free, you could do that, you know, so I picked, I picked a, a postgraduate course in Soviet law. So at the time there were three different areas of law. It was, you know, civil law, common law, but also socialist law, you know, so I was majorly interested in that because I, I had been an exchange student in the USI graduated from AUS high school and then had lots of languages in in my school in Germany. So I, you know, Latin and ancient Greek and so on. And amongst that I also had Russian, you know, so I thought, OK, why not listen? And I this, this sounded interesting, was a turn out to be a group of about 30 people and an amazing professor. And I asked the professor, well, can I attend? And he said, yeah, more than welcome, you know, Wolfgang, sit down with us and, and listening. And obviously I I learned a lot. There were a lot of wise people in the room. And I remember also the the professor then took us to his home in the last lesson and they served dinner. And it was, it was really different. I thought, you know, so I, I, I was reconfirmed in my idea of studying law and, and combining that with languages because I wanted at the time become a, an international policy advisor or yeah, work sort of in the United Nations changed the world. That was really always my aim and I then went to a place in southern Germany which was pasal in Bavaria and studied law with languages. So I had English, French and Russian as languages and that made it more amusing. I always thought law was a bit boring here you have to do other stuff. But interestingly, I mean, probably in comparison to here we, we studied a lot of things. Yeah. So for example, I had I had Roman law, I had sort of financials for lawyers, bookkeeping. I remember there was 1 seminar I did. It was about the poetic work of Sartre as a law cause. And you would just visit a lot of those things because it was interesting. Yeah. You didn't need the grades. You didn't, you didn't need to attend. But it was sort of a great idea to broaden your knowledge. And I at the time, I worked also a little bit at the, at the faculty. So at one particular with one particular professor, Professor Martin Finker. And you have to imagine that the professors, they have another standing in, let's say in, in, in continental Europe. So the professors are the thought leaders. The professors are, are the ones who get appointed to the Constitutional Court. Yeah. So they are the leaders. It's not the Chief Justice or something. They are also of course important, but it's really the academic side is very important and and law is being taught as a science. So a science because there is no difference between barrister and solicitor in the civil law system. And there is an enormous tradition in systematizing and recording the law. Yeah. So for example, you would have a a commentary to the Civil Code, which is maybe now 120 years old and roughly 200 thousandth decision by the court are recorded in that book. And that's absolutely fascinating, this tradition. And if we transfer that into today's time, that also gives a little bit of a better grip for AI because all those decisions are sort of systematized anyway. At the time I, I did some work there and it was not common at all to work at other places or to work a lot altogether because the the studies were so consuming that you could not. Yeah, little, little room to manage. So at the time I thought, OK, well, I've been to the United States and we really had only two superpowers at the time. So there was the United States and the Soviet Union. But when I started studying on in actually November 1989, the first week I arrived in Paso, something incredible happened and that was the Berlin Wall fell down. So I sat there and thought, oh, I am I going to go to Berlin now? Just just arrived, you know, otherwise I would have gone, but I, I gave a miss. I thought, Oh my God, that's, that's going to be frantic over there. But these were the times. So the borders opened. It was fascinating because Pasa is also very close to not only Austria but also the Czech Republic. So, you know, every other weekend we would go up to Prague and, and visit and experience. But the whole E at the time was an absolute enigma. So it was the Iron Curtain. Yeah. We, we didn't know what was behind, you know, and that's why I was also so fascinated by the socialistic law, you know, a totally different concept of how do they live? How do they do that? Why are they so different? Yes, I had relatives in, in East Germany. So Germany was divided. Part of the family lived here, part there. I, I, I spent a bit of time with them in East Berlin. That was very different already, you know, but to explore, there was a whole world to explore, which was so close, but yet so distant, you know, and then, and then I thought, OK, well, I've got to find a way to, to, to get into the Soviet Union like I did in the US and, and, and study a bit there. Study law. You know what would be better than that? Because yes, you can learn so much in in books and and and through your academic studies, but life can of course offer so much more. Yeah, well, the the curiosity that you've shown there I think is really a testament like the the form of education as well. The difference in education, I think is also resonates with your descriptions of not having to work at university, university being free and being able to do an exchange over the US, but also wanting to experience learning about Soviet law. That's. Yeah. Thank you so much for that answer. It's an amazing story. I can only imagine really what it was like living, Yeah, at such a pivotal event, I think in world history and being in a country like that. I mean, yeah. So you mentioned that you didn't want to go to Berlin to to, to see it, but do you have family and things like that in in Berlin at this time? Yeah. Yeah, I did. So I left a little bit earlier. I I visited them and later I studied also in Berlin. But before that I was really keen to, to go across into the Soviet Union. And so I work with, with my professor at the time and Professor Finke. And I'm most grateful to all the professors I work with to set up a scholarship program. And he had done a lot of work in Odessa, which is of course, in the Ukraine. And so we organized ADRD scholarship for Odessa. And a number of people then suddenly also applied and thought that was a good, good idea. And then there also came the opportunity to apply to or to basically to organize an exchange with Georgia, which at the time was also part of the Soviet Union. And I thought, OK, well, Georgia, that's really fascinating. That's different than the Slavic countries in the Caucasus. I'm going to go there. And yes, I at at the time, you know, we, we didn't of course appreciate how pivotal these changes in history where yes, I, you know, later in Berlin, I also studied politics and some history also like, you know, like I explained before, you would just go into lectures, sit there and listen and participate and give a speech, etcetera. But it wasn't, yeah, it wasn't formal. Yeah. But you live sort of through the day and and you observe things and it's all changing. But you, you don't appreciate in the moment that this is something you might want to tell your grandchildren later on. Yes, Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I I was then able to organise. It was difficult because the GDR, the German Democratic Republic did no longer want the relationship with the Soviet Union and the the Federal Republic of Germany didn't have them. Yeah, but in this limbo, there was a lot possible. And just to give you an example, so I I received a a scholarship then from the intaking university, the State University of Georgia, for about $10 a month. But these $10 could fly me three times to Moscow and back because the the currency, the ruble, was, well, almost worthless at the time. So, you know, it was all sort of learning by doing. Yes, yes, certainly, certainly you, you touched on the your, your experience in Georgia and one of the more remarkable aspects of your career is your work there, particularly in helping guide constitutional reform during such a volatile period in history. Can you describe what that was like? I'm working in Georgia and perhaps give some background to people that perhaps don't know what was happening in Georgia at the time. Yeah, so that happened of course a bit later, but this was sort of the fundament and you know, just imagine there are not many Westerners around in these countries at the time. So Neely Willie, you become an expert and, and later on, when all of these, the countries basically had to adopt A new legal system and a new economic system. They were looking for people who, you know, who spoke the language, who could assist with it. And I was a junior and I was lucky. I, I was, happened to know some people who were advising in this comparative discipline, which had always interested me, you know, as I was an exchange store. I was interested why, why do people cultures live different? What, why do they live? Why, why do they think differently? What's so different about my upbringing, etcetera. And, and, and that of course, is also manifested in the, in the jurisdiction, in all the laws, in the legal culture that you establish. And I learned basically written a little essay about that, how complex it is if you want to change a country's legal system, because you got to know about the history of the legal system, you got to know about the unwritten law in in the legal system or how so how is the law lived? How do people pay their taxes or not, for example. But also to understand how do you know, the neighboring countries regulate these affairs and what's actually the world's best practice. And you cannot possibly do that by yourself. You need to have a team. You need to have different opinion. You know, you have to have a common law scholar or you have to have a, you know, people from established jurisdictions which can make a contribution. But you need a lot of local people who also understand their own system and can guide you on that. So initially there were a lot of efforts to change the commercial law. Yeah, the contract law, the commercial law, etcetera. And that's where I got in early on. And later there was the the demand also for constitutional changes. And that has always interested me. I always thought so the law is interested where it it collides with other disciplines, you know, whether it's, you do, for example, insolvency, you know, you have to know a lot about commerce. You're studying commerce, for example. Yeah. Or whether constitutional law, obviously it has a lot to do with politics, you know, or you may say you're working in an in superannuation or pension system has to do a lot with social law. Yeah. So always where you have interdisciplinary studies, I thought that was most interesting. And of course, as, as, as you and I know it's, it's nice to apply the law. It's, it's fascinating to work on a daily basis, but it's sometimes even nicer if you can, if you can design law, you know, if you can have a think of, you know what a parliamentarian might want to see in legislation, etcetera. Yeah, well, it's, it's amazing to hear about the practical, I think implications of, of, of working sort of hands on in in a country like Georgia and and developing the law after such a volatile time. I think, yeah, what you spoke about the interdisciplinary nature, about constitutional lawyers and, and people who are experts in social law is important. But what really stuck out was the the fact that you need to have local and, and cultural understanding of, of the country and why those why their culture and, and law is the way that it is. And I think that's, it really resonates. But I will now turn the conversation a little bit to a set of standardized questions. We asked all we asked all our guests to get to know them a bit better. And I'll start off with the first one. What was your favorite subject in law school and why? Now that's a very good question. Well, yeah, maybe, maybe I stick with constitutional law because it had so much to do with politics and the mechanics that always interested me. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. What's 1 habit you believe has been pivotal to your success in the legal field? I think, I think daring things, even if they don't make sense. Yeah. So instead of going the trotting path, try something different. Certainly. Yeah. And. And eventually we'll all come together. Yeah. So, you know, I, I did work in in Uzbekistan, for example, I, I worked three months in with White and Case in Hanoi. Yeah. And at the end, all the all of the experience adds up. And I'm always a little bit mindful of Australian law students where the pathways often unfortunately narrow. Yeah, because it's it's hard to go anywhere else abroad then to the US or to to London and and to gain experience in other fields. Yeah, certainly I think yeah, the, the sort of cross discipline, disciplinary nature of your career and, and all these sort of different jurisdictions is something that really stands out. I mean, I wouldn't know the first thing about Uzbekistan, but really I don't think I can tell you the capital. But, you know, I, I, I think that that is something that a lot of law students do seek that that ability to gain exposure to, to the world and to. See these amazing places and learn about their, their culture and their, their law. And so thank you so much for sharing that and. If you allow me one yeah, thought on that. My my observation is a little bit that the book is getting more and more disregarded. And the way we do research nowaday is often we we spot only an article or snippet of an article to put it into our essay. But often books contain a wealth of experience from people who have dedicated sometimes their life to writing these books. And I think, you know, I can recommend sometimes, you know, to, to to borrow a book from the library and actually read it because I think, I think your generation still has that, but the generation coming is not really educated enough to still do that. And I think that then opens a lot more horizon than these these little snippets of the otherwise only merged together. Yeah. And that leads perfectly on to my next question. Do you have a book or a movie that's significant to you and one that you'd recommend to students? A book or a movie? Yeah, well. Could, could, could be a play as well. We've had plays, yeah, I recommended. Well, what one book which comes to my mind straight away is written by Wotek Zadorski. He's a professor at Sydney University, a law professor, and the book is called Something Like the. Here, don't quote me on it, but it's something like the epidemia of autocrats and what he does. He takes 6 autocrats from countries which are not considered a dictatorship, but which still try to appear as if they are democratic and looks deeply inside the mechanisms of how they undermine democracy and establish their own or their party's rule. Similar like we now see with Donald Trump, you know, And I think that's why it's so important and current and basically to to understand the way it is done. The playbook. Yeah. Because then if you know that playbook, you can call the the the players out, you know, and, and Wojieck Sadorsky does it excellently. He really unravels what's behind the scene. Thank you so much for your recommendation. I'll now move on to the last question. Do you have a piece of advice that was given to you that stands out to you and and who gave it to you? Probably many. And so, you know, we mentioned some. So I'm, I greatly believe in lifelong learning. Yeah. I think this is really important for everyone. I learn a lot. You know, there's so much I, I feel humbled. I, I, you know, every week I discover comparative aspects which I have overlooked before or which will just become apparent to me. But one thing from my commercial practice, so I'm commercial over with Hall and Wilcox is what a client once said to me. And he said, Doctor Babak, I don't, we don't have a legal problem. We have a commercial problem with a legal aspect. And I think that's, that's often overlooked, but that that's really what our clients want. They want assistance of how they can navigate forward and not just, you know, the black letter law. And that guidance has really helped me in a lot of. That's, I think some some great advice. Thank you so much for sitting down with me today and I wish you all the best for the rest of the year. Thank you, Oliver. Thank you.