Transcript
Hello everyone, and welcome back
to the Australian Law Student
Podcast.
I'm your host, Oliver Hammond,
and in today's episode, I had
the pleasure of sitting down
with Wolfgang Berbek.
Wolfgang currently serves as
European Council at Horne and
Wilcox, where he advises
international companies on
commercial law and doing
business in Australia.
He also.
Lectures in Comparative
Constitutional Law at Bond
University and chairs the
International Law Section of the
Law Council of Australia, where
he runs a popular program for
students and professionals
interested in international law.
In our conversation, we unpacked
his fascinating global career,
what it means to be an
international commercial lawyer,
and his thoughts on legal
education.
So without further ado, sit
back, relax, and enjoy the
podcast.
Wolfgang, thank you so much for
sitting down with me today.
It'll be a pleasure to have you
on the podcast, I'm sure.
How are you?
And very well, yeah.
Thank you, Oliver.
That's right, that's right.
I'll start off with my first
question.
I want you to reflect back on
your career.
You've moved across countries,
advised international clients,
and written on comparative law.
But can you take us back to
where it all began and what was
happening in the world and in
your own life as you were
finishing law school?
Were there particular moments or
unexpected turns early on that
shaped the direction your career
would take?
Yeah, that's a complex question.
Maybe, maybe I, I that goes back
a long way.
So maybe I, I start from the
very beginning because I thought
about it, because it's really,
it's really a bit different from
here.
So I started studying law in
Cologne at the Cologne
University when I wasn't even a
student.
So I, I obviously graduated from
high school and I, I was then in
the military service in Cologne
and I thought, well, why not use
a bit of the evening to go to
law school and, and listen in,
you know, and because education
is for free, you could do that,
you know, so I picked, I picked
a, a postgraduate course in
Soviet law.
So at the time there were three
different areas of law.
It was, you know, civil law,
common law, but also socialist
law, you know, so I was majorly
interested in that because I, I
had been an exchange student in
the USI graduated from AUS high
school and then had lots of
languages in in my school in
Germany.
So I, you know, Latin and
ancient Greek and so on.
And amongst that I also had
Russian, you know, so I thought,
OK, why not listen?
And I this, this sounded
interesting, was a turn out to
be a group of about 30 people
and an amazing professor.
And I asked the professor, well,
can I attend?
And he said, yeah, more than
welcome, you know, Wolfgang, sit
down with us and, and listening.
And obviously I I learned a lot.
There were a lot of wise people
in the room.
And I remember also the the
professor then took us to his
home in the last lesson and they
served dinner.
And it was, it was really
different.
I thought, you know, so I, I, I
was reconfirmed in my idea of
studying law and, and combining
that with languages because I
wanted at the time become a, an
international policy advisor or
yeah, work sort of in the United
Nations changed the world.
That was really always my aim
and I then went to a place in
southern Germany which was pasal
in Bavaria and studied law with
languages.
So I had English, French and
Russian as languages and that
made it more amusing.
I always thought law was a bit
boring here you have to do other
stuff.
But interestingly, I mean,
probably in comparison to here
we, we studied a lot of things.
Yeah.
So for example, I had I had
Roman law, I had sort of
financials for lawyers,
bookkeeping.
I remember there was 1 seminar I
did.
It was about the poetic work of
Sartre as a law cause.
And you would just visit a lot
of those things because it was
interesting.
Yeah.
You didn't need the grades.
You didn't, you didn't need to
attend.
But it was sort of a great idea
to broaden your knowledge.
And I at the time, I worked also
a little bit at the, at the
faculty.
So at one particular with one
particular professor, Professor
Martin Finker.
And you have to imagine that the
professors, they have another
standing in, let's say in, in,
in continental Europe.
So the professors are the
thought leaders.
The professors are, are the ones
who get appointed to the
Constitutional Court.
Yeah.
So they are the leaders.
It's not the Chief Justice or
something.
They are also of course
important, but it's really the
academic side is very important
and and law is being taught as a
science.
So a science because there is no
difference between barrister and
solicitor in the civil law
system.
And there is an enormous
tradition in systematizing and
recording the law.
Yeah.
So for example, you would have a
a commentary to the Civil Code,
which is maybe now 120 years old
and roughly 200 thousandth
decision by the court are
recorded in that book.
And that's absolutely
fascinating, this tradition.
And if we transfer that into
today's time, that also gives a
little bit of a better grip for
AI because all those decisions
are sort of systematized anyway.
At the time I, I did some work
there and it was not common at
all to work at other places or
to work a lot altogether because
the the studies were so
consuming that you could not.
Yeah, little, little room to
manage.
So at the time I thought, OK,
well, I've been to the United
States and we really had only
two superpowers at the time.
So there was the United States
and the Soviet Union.
But when I started studying on
in actually November 1989, the
first week I arrived in Paso,
something incredible happened
and that was the Berlin Wall
fell down.
So I sat there and thought, oh,
I am I going to go to Berlin
now?
Just just arrived, you know,
otherwise I would have gone, but
I, I gave a miss.
I thought, Oh my God, that's,
that's going to be frantic over
there.
But these were the times.
So the borders opened.
It was fascinating because Pasa
is also very close to not only
Austria but also the Czech
Republic.
So, you know, every other
weekend we would go up to Prague
and, and visit and experience.
But the whole E at the time was
an absolute enigma.
So it was the Iron Curtain.
Yeah.
We, we didn't know what was
behind, you know, and that's why
I was also so fascinated by the
socialistic law, you know, a
totally different concept of how
do they live?
How do they do that?
Why are they so different?
Yes, I had relatives in, in East
Germany.
So Germany was divided.
Part of the family lived here,
part there.
I, I, I spent a bit of time with
them in East Berlin.
That was very different already,
you know, but to explore, there
was a whole world to explore,
which was so close, but yet so
distant, you know, and then, and
then I thought, OK, well, I've
got to find a way to, to, to get
into the Soviet Union like I did
in the US and, and, and study a
bit there.
Study law.
You know what would be better
than that?
Because yes, you can learn so
much in in books and and and
through your academic studies,
but life can of course offer so
much more.
Yeah, well, the the curiosity
that you've shown there I think
is really a testament like the
the form of education as well.
The difference in education, I
think is also resonates with
your descriptions of not having
to work at university,
university being free and being
able to do an exchange over the
US, but also wanting to
experience learning about Soviet
law.
That's.
Yeah.
Thank you so much for that
answer.
It's an amazing story.
I can only imagine really what
it was like living, Yeah, at
such a pivotal event, I think in
world history and being in a
country like that.
I mean, yeah.
So you mentioned that you didn't
want to go to Berlin to to, to
see it, but do you have family
and things like that in in
Berlin at this time?
Yeah.
Yeah, I did.
So I left a little bit earlier.
I I visited them and later I
studied also in Berlin.
But before that I was really
keen to, to go across into the
Soviet Union.
And so I work with, with my
professor at the time and
Professor Finke.
And I'm most grateful to all the
professors I work with to set up
a scholarship program.
And he had done a lot of work in
Odessa, which is of course, in
the Ukraine.
And so we organized ADRD
scholarship for Odessa.
And a number of people then
suddenly also applied and
thought that was a good, good
idea.
And then there also came the
opportunity to apply to or to
basically to organize an
exchange with Georgia, which at
the time was also part of the
Soviet Union.
And I thought, OK, well,
Georgia, that's really
fascinating.
That's different than the Slavic
countries in the Caucasus.
I'm going to go there.
And yes, I at at the time, you
know, we, we didn't of course
appreciate how pivotal these
changes in history where yes, I,
you know, later in Berlin, I
also studied politics and some
history also like, you know,
like I explained before, you
would just go into lectures, sit
there and listen and participate
and give a speech, etcetera.
But it wasn't, yeah, it wasn't
formal.
Yeah.
But you live sort of through the
day and and you observe things
and it's all changing.
But you, you don't appreciate in
the moment that this is
something you might want to tell
your grandchildren later on.
Yes, Yeah.
Yeah.
So anyway, I I was then able to
organise.
It was difficult because the
GDR, the German Democratic
Republic did no longer want the
relationship with the Soviet
Union and the the Federal
Republic of Germany didn't have
them.
Yeah, but in this limbo, there
was a lot possible.
And just to give you an example,
so I I received a a scholarship
then from the intaking
university, the State University
of Georgia, for about $10 a
month.
But these $10 could fly me three
times to Moscow and back because
the the currency, the ruble,
was, well, almost worthless at
the time.
So, you know, it was all sort of
learning by doing.
Yes, yes, certainly, certainly
you, you touched on the your,
your experience in Georgia and
one of the more remarkable
aspects of your career is your
work there, particularly in
helping guide constitutional
reform during such a volatile
period in history.
Can you describe what that was
like?
I'm working in Georgia and
perhaps give some background to
people that perhaps don't know
what was happening in Georgia at
the time.
Yeah, so that happened of course
a bit later, but this was sort
of the fundament and you know,
just imagine there are not many
Westerners around in these
countries at the time.
So Neely Willie, you become an
expert and, and later on, when
all of these, the countries
basically had to adopt A new
legal system and a new economic
system.
They were looking for people
who, you know, who spoke the
language, who could assist with
it.
And I was a junior and I was
lucky.
I, I was, happened to know some
people who were advising in this
comparative discipline, which
had always interested me, you
know, as I was an exchange
store.
I was interested why, why do
people cultures live different?
What, why do they live?
Why, why do they think
differently?
What's so different about my
upbringing, etcetera.
And, and, and that of course, is
also manifested in the, in the
jurisdiction, in all the laws,
in the legal culture that you
establish.
And I learned basically written
a little essay about that, how
complex it is if you want to
change a country's legal system,
because you got to know about
the history of the legal system,
you got to know about the
unwritten law in in the legal
system or how so how is the law
lived?
How do people pay their taxes or
not, for example.
But also to understand how do
you know, the neighboring
countries regulate these affairs
and what's actually the world's
best practice.
And you cannot possibly do that
by yourself.
You need to have a team.
You need to have different
opinion.
You know, you have to have a
common law scholar or you have
to have a, you know, people from
established jurisdictions which
can make a contribution.
But you need a lot of local
people who also understand their
own system and can guide you on
that.
So initially there were a lot of
efforts to change the commercial
law.
Yeah, the contract law, the
commercial law, etcetera.
And that's where I got in early
on.
And later there was the the
demand also for constitutional
changes.
And that has always interested
me.
I always thought so the law is
interested where it it collides
with other disciplines, you
know, whether it's, you do, for
example, insolvency, you know,
you have to know a lot about
commerce.
You're studying commerce, for
example.
Yeah.
Or whether constitutional law,
obviously it has a lot to do
with politics, you know, or you
may say you're working in an in
superannuation or pension system
has to do a lot with social law.
Yeah.
So always where you have
interdisciplinary studies, I
thought that was most
interesting.
And of course, as, as, as you
and I know it's, it's nice to
apply the law.
It's, it's fascinating to work
on a daily basis, but it's
sometimes even nicer if you can,
if you can design law, you know,
if you can have a think of, you
know what a parliamentarian
might want to see in
legislation, etcetera.
Yeah, well, it's, it's amazing
to hear about the practical, I
think implications of, of, of
working sort of hands on in in a
country like Georgia and and
developing the law after such a
volatile time.
I think, yeah, what you spoke
about the interdisciplinary
nature, about constitutional
lawyers and, and people who are
experts in social law is
important.
But what really stuck out was
the the fact that you need to
have local and, and cultural
understanding of, of the country
and why those why their culture
and, and law is the way that it
is.
And I think that's, it really
resonates.
But I will now turn the
conversation a little bit to a
set of standardized questions.
We asked all we asked all our
guests to get to know them a bit
better.
And I'll start off with the
first one.
What was your favorite subject
in law school and why?
Now that's a very good question.
Well, yeah, maybe, maybe I stick
with constitutional law because
it had so much to do with
politics and the mechanics that
always interested me.
Yeah.
Yeah, certainly.
What's 1 habit you believe has
been pivotal to your success in
the legal field?
I think, I think daring things,
even if they don't make sense.
Yeah.
So instead of going the trotting
path, try something different.
Certainly.
Yeah.
And.
And eventually we'll all come
together.
Yeah.
So, you know, I, I did work in
in Uzbekistan, for example, I, I
worked three months in with
White and Case in Hanoi.
Yeah.
And at the end, all the all of
the experience adds up.
And I'm always a little bit
mindful of Australian law
students where the pathways
often unfortunately narrow.
Yeah, because it's it's hard to
go anywhere else abroad then to
the US or to to London and and
to gain experience in other
fields.
Yeah, certainly I think yeah,
the, the sort of cross
discipline, disciplinary nature
of your career and, and all
these sort of different
jurisdictions is something that
really stands out.
I mean, I wouldn't know the
first thing about Uzbekistan,
but really I don't think I can
tell you the capital.
But, you know, I, I, I think
that that is something that a
lot of law students do seek that
that ability to gain exposure
to, to the world and to.
See these amazing places and
learn about their, their culture
and their, their law.
And so thank you so much for
sharing that and.
If you allow me one yeah,
thought on that.
My my observation is a little
bit that the book is getting
more and more disregarded.
And the way we do research
nowaday is often we we spot only
an article or snippet of an
article to put it into our
essay.
But often books contain a wealth
of experience from people who
have dedicated sometimes their
life to writing these books.
And I think, you know, I can
recommend sometimes, you know,
to, to to borrow a book from the
library and actually read it
because I think, I think your
generation still has that, but
the generation coming is not
really educated enough to still
do that.
And I think that then opens a
lot more horizon than these
these little snippets of the
otherwise only merged together.
Yeah.
And that leads perfectly on to
my next question.
Do you have a book or a movie
that's significant to you and
one that you'd recommend to
students?
A book or a movie?
Yeah, well.
Could, could, could be a play as
well.
We've had plays, yeah, I
recommended.
Well, what one book which comes
to my mind straight away is
written by Wotek Zadorski.
He's a professor at Sydney
University, a law professor, and
the book is called Something
Like the.
Here, don't quote me on it, but
it's something like the epidemia
of autocrats and what he does.
He takes 6 autocrats from
countries which are not
considered a dictatorship, but
which still try to appear as if
they are democratic and looks
deeply inside the mechanisms of
how they undermine democracy and
establish their own or their
party's rule.
Similar like we now see with
Donald Trump, you know, And I
think that's why it's so
important and current and
basically to to understand the
way it is done.
The playbook.
Yeah.
Because then if you know that
playbook, you can call the the
the players out, you know, and,
and Wojieck Sadorsky does it
excellently.
He really unravels what's behind
the scene.
Thank you so much for your
recommendation.
I'll now move on to the last
question.
Do you have a piece of advice
that was given to you that
stands out to you and and who
gave it to you?
Probably many.
And so, you know, we mentioned
some.
So I'm, I greatly believe in
lifelong learning.
Yeah.
I think this is really important
for everyone.
I learn a lot.
You know, there's so much I, I
feel humbled.
I, I, you know, every week I
discover comparative aspects
which I have overlooked before
or which will just become
apparent to me.
But one thing from my commercial
practice, so I'm commercial over
with Hall and Wilcox is what a
client once said to me.
And he said, Doctor Babak, I
don't, we don't have a legal
problem.
We have a commercial problem
with a legal aspect.
And I think that's, that's often
overlooked, but that that's
really what our clients want.
They want assistance of how they
can navigate forward and not
just, you know, the black letter
law.
And that guidance has really
helped me in a lot of.
That's, I think some some great
advice.
Thank you so much for sitting
down with me today and I wish
you all the best for the rest of
the year.
Thank you, Oliver.
Thank you.